WILL UNWOUND #218: “Birth Order and Librarians” by Will Manley
September 1, 2010I know nothing about birth order. I know that there have been some very interesting and very popular books written about birth order. It’s not a subject that I have been particularly interested in and so I have not really been motivated to explore it.
But then I encountered this very interesting comment from Linda in her reaction to my post about why some employees do not like to take vacations:
- “I used to feel a personal responsibility to my library to be there to help take care of business all of the time. And so I’d be the one that would forever be staying that extra few minutes to finish up a task, coming in extra hours on the weekend when not scheduled and who also didn’t take vacation time in consecutive blocks (i.e. two weeks together etc) and as a result I’d have two weeks of vacation time going into the fall or even into the holiday season. Of course I think some of that type of mind set is due to my birth order – I’m an only child and only children are frequently known to have tunnel vision and take care of tasks at hand to the letter and to the exclusion of everything else in their lives.”
Because Linda is so meticulous and comprehensive in submitting her comments and because I have so much respect for what she writes, I then made a follow up comment to her asking her to develop further her theory about birth order. Here was her next response:
- “I’m not an expert on birth order by any means but I have read a number of articles on the subject over the years including two of Dr. Kevin Leman’s books The Birth Order Book and First Born Advantage (he defines both first born children and only children as first borns) and from my readings and my personal experience I’d say only children tend to be perfectionistic (perhaps mellowing as they get older — as I hope I have — into people who strive for excellence instead of the almost impossible goal of total perfection in every task), goal oriented (think tunnel vision focusing on one task to the exclusion of almost everything else until said task is completed) and super reliable and responsible. So my brief answer to the question of “Do only children have a heightened sense of responsibility?” is yes – I’d say as a general rule we do!”
In my career as a librarian and as a manager, I participated in a number “personality type” workshops. The idea was to determine what quadrant you were in as a worker. One iteration of this exercise was colors. If I recall correctly blues were emotion driven, greens were data driven, oranges were risk takers, and golds were rules driven. There was also the Briggs/Meyers categories. The people who ran these workshops seemed to think it was important for everyone on the work team to understand the personalities of everyone else on the work team. It was most important for the supervisor to know this information so that she/he would not give a data analysis task to a blue or a brainstorming task to a green. Everyone had fun for a few days and then it was all forgotten.
Here’s what I’m wondering: Is Linda on to something about work habits and your birth order? Me, I’m a middle child, and I will have to say that at work I always seemed to feel the need to mediate between warring factions. My thing was to find common ground and to get everyone on that common ground. I did not like conflict. Was that a function of my birth order? This could be fascinating.
UNWINDERS: What is your take on birth order and work habits?
There’s also a fascinating personality system called the enneagram. I’m a 5. Some teachers call that “type” the Librarian. (Surprisingly this type like to know things and is sometimes called The Observer.)
Fortunately, as we age we take on parts of all personality types and become more balanced.
Amber…you have an interesting take on aging. Why do you think we become more diversified in our personality as we grow older?
Hopefully the longer we live in the world the more empathetic be become. And grow. Or at least mellow.
I am more patient now, but try to avoid people who remind me of the librarian I was in my 20s and 30s. Cringe!
The enneagram has been around perhaps 2000 years, used by the Sufis and the Catholic Church and then brought forth again my Gurdjieff in the 20s. It proves people haven’t changed very much. Many teachers used it as a gentle guide and method for personal and spiritual growth.
When our new Director came to town, a position she won largely based on some really good art work she commissioned for her interview (This was prior to PowerPoint), she immediately gave all senior management the Myers-Briggs personality test so she could gain insight on just who her managers really were. I believe every last one of us tested out INTJ.
Hmm. What to do? So she decided we all really needed a better understanding of the role of change in the world and the necessity to investigate new paradigms and think outside the box. So she rented, for upwards of a thousand dollars, as I recall, the movie: “Who moved the cheese?” It’s a good thing the lights were out for this one, because I believe every last one of us fell asleep.
In subsequent years we were subjected to the Luscher Color Test, the One Minute Manager, and various other pop psychology views of the world. We hired many consultants over the years all trying to to mold us into a cohesive group. A birth order specialist may have been one of them. It’s all a blur at his point and it’s difficult to remember. I’m just glad she didn’t have the bucks to give us all the MMPI. Finally she hired a consultant who viewed our organization and came to the conclusion that the Director ought to be fired.
She told this to only on of our senior managers, who then proceeded to write a scathing letter to the Board outlining the Director’s many faults. The Board conducted an investigation and then fired the Director. The same senior manager let it go to her head and managed to interfere with the hiring of the new Director in such a way that she, in her turn, was also fired.
My belief is that it is dangerous to rely on pop psychology issues to guide management behavior. Remember, Ted Bundy was a psychology major. (I went to high school with him.) I prefer astrology myself. At least it has a long history.
Mick, this is actually a very good summary of many of the management seminar tortures that I endured. You make me laugh until it hurts. Are you working on that guest post????
Since the MMPI is for diagnosis of mental disorders, what where you afraid of? Or should i ask….
It’s not that I am afraid of the MMPI. After all, I’ve taken it a few times. It’s just that it is a gruling task. You have to be on your toes when you are faking it to make sure you don’t screw up the “V” score*. I’m sure it would have raised the question of the source of the scores being a library or a mental institution.
* “V” = “Validity” so if they ask you, “Do you like puppies or kittens?” and you answer “puppies” one time and “kittens” another time this lowers the V score.
Will, If I can think of a great topic that won’t bore the readers I will submit it.
Thanks, Mick! Let me assure you…you are never boring. You are the least boring person I have ever encountered. It would be totally out of your personality to bore anyone.
One caution: if they ask you “Do you like kittens or puppies?” and you answer “Both, with a red-wine marinade and basil” both times, your V score will be fine but you may not get the job.
I am also a middle child and I agree completely with your comment about mediating and avoiding conflict. I would add I also see myself as an interpreter. I am the middle child of nine and I often explain points of view from one end of the family to the other.
I think my experience within the family has influenced my approach to my work, especially in my dealings with library staff. I try to understand various points of view and look for the best compromise possible.
lani…you bring up another very interesting point. People who grow up in large families, it would seem to me, must see the world differently than people who grow up in small families. I find this a fascinating subject because I live in a very diverse community here in the Bay area. I notice in church every Sunday that the immigrant families are much larger than the non-immigrant families. I often wonder what this means. One of the interesting differences between my mother and father stems from the fact that she is from a small family and he was from a very large family. I think it impacted the way they saw the world.
I disagree. I’m first-born, and the only girl. I also prefer to mediate and avoid conflict. I also take responsibility and credit when it is due. I don’t know if my birth order influenced my personality so much as my parents did…
I’m the youngest but I seem to act like an oldest child. There are 3.5 years between my brother and I, which may or may not make a difference. I wonder if first born boy and first born girl makes any difference?
But really… I don’t buy it.
Elise…actually I think you are on to another issue. What impact does age difference have between siblings?
According to the Leman books there are several categories of first borns. A first born person isn’t just the first born in the family but can also be person who was the first born male or female in a family or if there is a difference in age of more than five years between sibling groups than the oldest child of the next group can also be considered a first born and have some first born traits.
Linda, now I’m more likely to give some credence to birth order, knowing that first born male and first born females are both considered first born.
I’m still interested to know if the age difference means anything.
And by age difference meaning anything, I mean, could the first born male and first born female, born 9 months apart to the same family, be considered anything else? I think the age difference could vary.
All this stems from the fact that I’m such a tomboy that my brother sometimes refered to me as the brother he never had. How’s that for a loop, Lehman?
All this gibberish from me.. should finish coffee before comments
The Leman books also talk about the difference in ages of children in a family and Dr. Lehman does think ages difference makes a difference. For example I recall him saying if there is 5 years or more of an age difference between siblings than the child who is 5 years younger will have some firstborn traits simply because he or she is younger by enough that the family dynamics are different based upon the age difference — if that makes sense!
I’m a middle child, Will. I don’t enjoy conflict and wish that genie would show up and banish our conflict-maker to Baffin Island.
That’s not to say I don’t get annoyed and don’t sometimes blow a gasket, but I do not seek conflict. It just makes me tired.
A very dear friend who was a middle child too, once told me that he had grown up feeling lost in the shuffle. He had two older siblings and two younger. Parental attention was focused on both ends, not the middle so much. Same in my family. I was the good child. He was far more extroverted than I, but we both shared a dislike of conflict, wanted to be left alone to do our work, liked things done properly and wanted to do our best.
I’m a Gold in the colors system – which isn’t so much rule driven as having a preference for order. Two of my co-workers have their colors in the same order as mine gold/blue/green/orange and we get along like a house afire. One of those co-workers and I share the same Myers-Briggs profile too.
Years ago back in the corporate world, we had a manager come in who set quite a store by Myers-Briggs. We all got tested and then we had an in-service day – her cock-eyed theory? Employees who tested high I were difficult to work with, didn’t produce, etc. When we lined up according to how we scored on I and E, the workhorses of the division led the I pack. The most worthless employee in the division led the E pack.
Colors and Myers-Briggs may explain personality differences, but a little bit of civility, kindness, understanding and humanity do a lot more for workplace harmony than tests that are sometimes used to label employees.
Ellen…you show the wisdom of your experience. Maybe those personality seminars do some good if they help us come to the same conclusion that you put forth. Birth order is a very interesting concept. As a middle child, I never felt overshadowed. My parents were the best. But I have always cringed at conflict.
My parents were great, too, but my older brother had lots of problems growing up. He was in his 30s before he straightened up. I did once, when I was in my 40s, overhear my mother say to a friend that although she loved all three of us, I was her favorite. Probably because I caused the least trouble and I’ve never lived more than 100 miles from her.
I’m not sure how much to add to this subject since the whole discussion is based upon what I said about it before! I will say I do find the subject fascinating.
From what I’ve read about middle born children, like my mother and Will, they tend to be, generally speaking of course, the mediators in families and they take those middle born mediator traits out into the working world with them which I would think could be a great advantage in certain professional roles.
I will say in the articles/books I’ve read on the subject the most clearly defined people are those who are first borns, only children or the babies in their families – middle children I think tend to be mediators but also have more of a variety of traits than the super tunnel vision focused, goal oriented first borns and only children and the limelight seekers who are the youngest children in a family. In relation, a great deal too depends on how many children are in a family and what the age range, and age difference is between those children.
And I must admit I never thought much about birth order either until I read the Birth Order Book in the mid-eighties. And I can’t remember the page number just now but I do recall being impatient because I’d read through several chapters of the book and the only child, which is my birth order, hadn’t been mentioned except in passing and as I was impatiently turning the page to start reading a new chapter which happened to be on only children the text said something like “If you’re among the only children on this planet then right about know you are probably thinking – well, it’s about time here we are on page 79 and the only child has barely been mentioned.” And of course that is exactly what I was thinking so perhaps needless to say I finished reading the book.
And to give you an idea as to why I find this subject so intriguing here’s a quote from the Leman book First Born Advantage; the text is discussing the meticulousness of first borns who like to do things precisely and get the job done ASAP and then Leman notes “Neil Armstrong, the first man to walk on the moon, was a first born (the eldest of three children). All the Mercury Seven astronauts were firstborns. In fact, of the first twenty-three astronauts in outer space, twenty-one were first borns. The other two were only children. There wasn’t a middle or youngest child in sight.” Now I find that statement fascinating! Dr. Leham goes on to give other examples of other professions that tend to attract people of other birth orders (and of course no profession is made up of people of just one birth order) but of course I was paying the most attention to what he said about my birth order as he includes only children in his definitions of firstborns – and if you find this subject interesting too you might want to check out Leman’s earlier work The Birth Order Book which takes a look at birth orders in general.
Linda…I totally think there is something that sticks to us for life from the role we play in the families we are born into. The last thing in the world I would want to be would be an astronaut. As a middle born I’d rather have peace here on earth.
I don’t have hard facts about birth order and its impact on personality or career performance. Anecdotally, as an oldest child, I was frequently left “in charge” when my parents were out; having to take more responsibility made me more, well, responsible than my younger brother (who until recently has been giving The Dude a run for his money as Laziest Man In The World). I feel responsible for everything in my department at work, as well; it’s like on some level, I think my parents are going to come home and I need to make sure things are in order for their upcoming inspection. The facts that they a) are not my employers, b) are either dead or 1000+ miles away and c) wouldn’t care about that messy-looking shelf anyway do not seem to stop me.
jessa…this is a fascinating comment and certainly lends credence to the theory that the role given to us in our family life tends to stick. By the way…I haven’t forgotten about our comment policy. I am doing a full follow-up to the reality check of two weeks ago and will unveil it probably early next week.
I will have to think about this some more; right now it’s way past my bedtime. I will just say for now that I’m an only child. An only child, when you think about it, is both the oldest and the youngest child, and you could even stretch a point and say there could be a bit of middle in the mix. And I often feel that I ended up with the worst traits of all of those.
Interesting point. I have often thought the only child becomes the parental middleman.
You know, I think you’ve hit it, in a lot of families at least. I was reconsidering my comment after I clicked the submit button last night — “‘middle’? Middle of what?” — but that’s it, in the middle of your parents, at least potentially. In my case that led to a horror of conflict, though alas no social or interpersonal skills wherewith to manage conflict. :p
That may be true about the only child sometimes playing the middle man between parents. Since I grew up with a divorced mother it wasn’t my experience, instead I wound up more with a one on one relationship of what I might call semi-equals.
I think birth order matters a little – “firsties” are the ones that break parents in (eg, arguments over size of allowance, dating, bedtimes, curfews, etc.). So perhaps those ‘battles’, along with higher parental expectations/levels of care (by that I mean the number of photos taken of the first born vs. later children, or the fact that my mother knit my baby afghan in 3 months and took 4 years for my younger sister’s) create a personality type that is used to leadership and finding ways to take responsibility.
Having said that, birth order probably meant a whole lot when we had larger families. But today, with as few as four children being seen as a large family, I just don’t buy it. But then, I’m an Enneagram 5, an INTJ, and I’ve had my Birkman analysis done (all as part of a previous career in an outplacement firm). Like Mick, I’ve also been One Minute Managed and gone from Good to Great.
Fluff psychology may help uncertain managers find tools with which to approach subordinates. With any luck, they soon learn that one size doesn’t fit all, and that even the most intellectual Gemini may have some nasty traits depending on what sign is rising.
Laura…you raise an interesting point. Are managers better off not knowing any of that personality data in dealing with employees? If someone is data driven, do you really need a diagnostic test to determine that? Duh.
Must admit I did a huge eye roll when I read the post. I don’t care about general traits, they are way too broad to act upon. And managers who torture staff by taking the latest flavor of it seriously deserve that lowest level of Hell. It’s really not of any practical use in the workplace to know who is what type on any particular scale. I am more interested in the complex person standing in front of me, and more importantly – are they doing their job???
Could the eye roll be indicative of spoiled youngest child? My sister would say yes…
Leslie…your comment has me laughing. However…here’s a question for you: Do you really believe most people are all that complex?
Maybe a better term to use would be “unique” – Know that you mention it, I don’t think most of us are all that complex – certainly not moi.
Okay, I will definitely accept “unique” over complex.
The initial statement about tunnel-visioned only children made me chuckle because my husband is an only child and people are forever suggesting he get tested for ADD, ADHD, etc.
I’m the oldest of two and I’ve always been pretty bossy but have never looked into other expected traits.
We did the Meyers-Briggs test in library school and, like Will says, it was interesting for a day and probably none of us have thought of it since. I do remember it was INTP. Never took any of the others.
Our director is only into the Carole Jackson sort of color analysis, so we’ve never been analyzed.
Kristen…for colors I tested out a blue. When I found this out, I burst out into a rendition of the song, “AM I Blue?” Our seminar leader was not amused. My response: “I’m blue. I have to sing.”
Out of curiosity, I looked up enneagrams on Wikipedia and immediately identified with 1. I’ve also been subjected to Myers-Briggs and was confused when the results seemed to lead in no direction (I was comforted when the instructor told me that it probably meant I was well-balanced). I haven’t tried the color test except to say that I’m a “winter” as far as clothes are concerned.
I’m a middle child with a lazy, not-very-goal-oriented (unless you define watching tv as goal-directed), funny but insensitive to the way his humor may hurt others, lime-light-seeking, very social first child older brother. My younger sister, the other middle child, is an over-achieving goal-oriented compassionate mediator, and my younger brother is competent, responsible, organized, and funny, but not insensitive.
Astrologically, I’m a Libra, and guess what? Those characteristics seem to fit me too. But do you remember the test that was given to a group of (I think) college students? They were each given an individual horoscope reading, and then told to determine if it really fit them. The consensus was that they all felt their horoscope was accurate. It was then revealed that every one of them had been given the same predetermined reading.
I do think there can be some influence on personality due to birth order – parents certainly have more time to deal with the first/only child than multiple, succeeding children. But I suspect there are so many variables that it’s a very flawed model.
And I think, as in the horoscope test, we select and project to fit the model we’re dealing with at the time, while ignoring the parts that don’t fit.
birdy…I agree with 90% of what you are saying, but I truly do believe that the family role we were thrust into as a child impacts us throughout our life.
I agree – I think it would be interesting to get a poll of how many directors are oldests or onlies, etc.
Also, I took the Myers Briggs for the first time at church for Sunday school teachers, and almost everyone in the room was an INFJ or INTJ. They said in the analysis that this type – less than 3% of the American population – often was in the ministry, teaching or library work. Just saying….
Karen, the interesting thing about being a director, however, is that you rarely direct anything. You are constantly mediating between conflicted parties.
You can get extremely helpful insights about yourself and others by learning about personality types, birth order factors, etc. But nobody is really defined by those indicators. People are much more complex, and the interplay of many different individual factors goes into their behavior.
That said, the two books “Type Talk” and “Type Talk at Work”, by Otto Kroeger and Janet Thuesen, should be on every manager’s short list of books to read, along with Cyril N. Parkinson’s entertaining classic, Parkinson’s Law.
Thanks, Wayne for the book recommendations. Actually I’m not sure that most people are all that complex. I don’t think I am at least.
Reading through the traits of the various birth order personalities, I have hit the jack pot. I am the last born child so that makes me a risk taker, idealist (this is definitely me) and a hard worker those are the good traits. I would also be considered first born since there is 14 years between my sister and myself so I am also reliable, nurturing, conscientious, and a team player. All of these characteristics I feel apply to me; even some of the negative characteristics which I have decided to leave out would also apply. I hate to be late, if there is a problem at work that needs to be resolved I am usually the one that will resolve it because of my dogged determination to see a task to the end, it does not need to be perfect but it needs to be resolved
Susan
Susan…are most risk takers also idealistic? Hadn’t thought about that. It’s an interesting combination.
My thoughts on risk taking are not being a daredevil, it is not being afraid to forge ahead, not being afraid of change and new adventures. Risk taking can lead to greater self discovery.
It has been ages since I’ve thought about those different personality tests. I never took the Ennegram or color tests, but took the Myers-Briggs. I can only remember the E and J ratings. I forget the middle two. Now, 20 years later, I’m sure I’m higher on the I rating – how would a long term manager handle that?
Yes, I definitely have oldest child issues – perfectionism especially. I’ve finally gotten past bossiness – I’m no good at it or in managing, so I gave up both. I’m probably the most driven child, although the baby, my only sister, isn’t far behind me.
My sister was definitely the most spoiled of us. Even now, at 40, she’s the one who can wrap Dad around her finger the easiest. Yet she’s probably the most successful professionally.
What does all this say? Sure birth order affects us. Sure all these personality tests are interesting. But they don’t have to rule us.
Vicki H….good point. We are who we are. Nurture AND nature both work into the equation.
Like Will, I am also a middle child and I often find myself taking on the role of mediator in my position as an assistant director. I don’t think that it’s an accident that I ended up in this position. I also strongly dislike conflict, and it’s been an ongoing challenge to learn to sit with conflict instead of bending myself into a pretzel trying to solve everyone’s problems. At the same time, I’m a bit of a perfectionist, which it sounds like is more of an oldest/only child thing, so some of it must just be a personality thing…Love this thread…
Susan…thank God I am not a perfectionist. That particular trait must be very painful.
I love those personality tests. If my statistics grades had been better I would have gone in to psychometrics instead of librarianship. I love trying to figure out how they reach their conclusions, rather than the actual test result for me personally. Not sure what they really tell you anyway – hey, I’m a person how likes change and takes risks in an office full of people who like things to stay the same – like I couldn’t having figured that out just by being moderately observant.
I’ve forgotten everything I ever knew about birth order – and so many things shape our lives. What affects me more, being a middle child or having a minor physical handicap? Anyway, like other middle children I do like everyone to get along. I also have no particular need to be liked by everyone, so I’m not afraid to be blunt when necessary. I suspect my “pick your battles” philosophy is also a middle child thing. I’m slightly less ambitious than my librarian husband (a first child), but I was still pretty ambitious for the first 20 years of my career. I’m a rule follower while my husband has a much more fluid take on rules. As you can image, tax time at our house is interesting. I would not characterize my husband as super responsible, although he has risen through the library ranks to a position of responsibility. In spite of the fact we’ve been gone over 180 work hours since mid-June, he’s still taking the train to Chicago, via LA, Portland, and Minneapolis, for a 2 day meeting. My conscience wouldn’t allow me to take another 10 days off.
that should have read “who likes change”. Does spelling/typing/proofreading have any thing to do with birth order, because I’m lousy at all three. I’ll blame it on realizing in the middle of typing this that it’s the first day to get a shot at ALA midwinter hotels.
met…you and your husband sound like the perfect team!
I’m a middle child, and in my family relationships the stereotype definitely applies. At work, not so much. I find it much easier to break out of established behavior patterns in my professional life than I do in my personal life.
I’ve taken several personality tests, including Myers-Briggs, the Enneagram, and the Strength Deployment Inventory. I think the tests can help you look at yourself and identify traits that are strengths and traits that might get in your way. It’s not bad to take stock once in awhile and see if there are areas where you might need to grow. If you’re a relatively self-aware person, you can evaluate the test results with a critical eye and dismiss those things that don’t apply to you.
However, I think it can be very risky to try to put others in a box of some sort of personality type or birth order description. You’ll never know your employees or colleagues as well as you know yourself, so to assume that all the traits of a given type apply could be pretty damaging. Not to mention, if you work with more than 3 or 4 people it must be really hard to keep track of everyone’s type!
Tests definitely aren’t for everyone, but they can be fun and helpful – just take them with a grain of salt.
Genesis…wisdom must be one of your traits. Great comment.
Theories about personality types and birth order are interesting, but it’s important to remember that we are all individuals and should be treated as such. As long as people approach these theories with curiosity, looking for insight, that seems harmless. But when people make sweeping generalizations based on them, they are guilty of stereotyping and/or prejudice. Each of us deserves to be treated as a unique individual, not an example of a type or set of traits. Sorry for the mini-rant, but this topic touched a nerve.
Janet…out of curiosity are you a first born? Just kidding!
Tee hee. I’m an only! When my parents saw what I was like, they didn’t dare have another one. Maybe personality typing irritates me, because I get different results each time I take one. My favorite example is the question on the Myers-Briggs that asks whether you’d prefer to go to a party or stay home and read a book. That depends on my mood, how tired I am, the kind of party, who will be at the party, how good the book is, what the weather is like… etc. Leave it to a former English major to turn an either/or question into an essay.
Janet – those are all valid considerations when choosing between the party and the book, lol.
Janet…at my age, I can definitively state that I choose the book every time.
When I was a banker we all were given the Meyers-Briggs; I was an intj. A few years later, after a few years of therapy, I retook the test and came out as infp. The tester said she had never seen anyone make that change. I am not sure what it means – perhaps that such tests are unreliable. Or maybe those years of therapy did cause a significant change in my personality. Also during that time I did about a third of the course work for an MBA but dropped it because I hated it. A couple years later I quit the banking business altogether and spent a year in library school.
I don’t know what my color is – never had that test. But green and blue are my favorite colors.
I did the MMPI in college – what a crock!
Finally, I am the youngest of two girls, my sister being 4 years older. But my situation was a bit odd, having a narcisistic mother. What my sister accomplished I did not do: she had a bike but I didn’t, she had piano lessons but when she quit the piano was sold. Conversely, what she didn’t finish, I was expected to take up: she went to college and I was supposed to/expected to stay at home but when she dropped out to get married then I was the college student because somebody had to get that degree. For those not conversant with narcisists, as parents they have some difficulty distinguishing between kids. They obviously know the difference but what one does the other doesn’t need to; maybe because everything the kid(s) do is mainly a reflection of the parent not the accomplishment of the kid.
And that’s my story. Amazing I turned out the way I did.
Lynne…do you recommend therapy as a constructive, transformative process?
Yes, Will, I actually do. But so much depends on finding a good therapist. Mine was not a psychiatrist or psychologist but some other designation I’ve forgotten now; some social work-related graduate level program; ACW or something like that. I spent 6 years in therapy and really believe I came to see a truer picture of who I am. I spent a lot of years trying to “be” my mother, whom I came to understand was a narcisist and a snob. Later, I spent another couple of years with an addictions counselor because I was involved with an alcoholic, and that was very helpful as well. That and AlAnon, even though they didn’t keep me from getting with another alcoholic after the death of the first one. Now, I hope, I’ve learned for good that I can’t fix anyone and I can’t help someone who doesn’t want to help himself.
Pop psychology is just that, but therapy can be extremely helpful. Especially if you have good insurance.
Will, since this is one of my hot-button issues, I’m going to be a buttinsky and give a resounding “yes!” to therapy. Popular discourse seems to paint therapy as navel-gazing, parent-blaming, self-indulgent drivel. Nothing could be further from the truth. It’s a great tool for becoming more self-aware and therefore better able to identify behaviors/beliefs that serve you and should be kept, and behaviors/beliefs that don’t serve you and need to be deep sixed.
Also, we need to de-stigmatize mental health care. When my OCD was at its worst, I went into therapy. The unwanted thoughts were nearly unbearable; I would have killed myself if left untreated. Yet I felt a great deal of shame and guilt when setting up my first appointment with a mental health counselor because culturally, we’re taught that therapy is for the self-involved, the weak, and the crazy. I wasn’t particularly keen to fall under any of those umbrellas, y’know? Nor is anyone. By stigmatizing mental health care, our culture makes it harder for suffering people to reach out for the help they need. I’m not into that, so I’ve gotten pretty vocal about this issue. *falls arse over teakettle off her soapbox*
You might be interested in the book – I think it is called – Children of Self Absorbed parents (or something like that.) I found it quite enlightening as to how I turned out – and still am. There are something about me that just don’t change.
What I find interesting about all the self analysis things (Meyers Briggs, Enneagrams, DiSC, etc) is that they help you and others understand that you are the way you are because of a lot of background that doesn’t quite go away. Somebody mentioned being polite, considerate, etc. That is all well and good, but sometimes one person’s idea of polite is another person’s idea of snooty or stuck up. Someone who is considered outgoing and friendly by some of the staff might be an overbearing bore to others. Helping us to look at ourselves and our actions gets us past some of our own denials and excuses. I think they are lots better for self evaluation than learning about others, but I suppose it might help us gain a little tolerance for others foibles. I used to tell staff we all had our little quirks, but a couple of people felt they had quirks but some other people were just annoying.
It is “Childred of the Self Absorbed” and the OC accession # is OCLC: 46399253. FYI
Make that Children.
Just a quickie. The mother of Brian Bosworth, one of the first “branded” NFL players who lasted a couple of seasons with the Seahawks, was interviewed about her son, third in line. She said,
“If he had been the first one he would have been the only one.”
Mick, that reminds me of an old Roseanne Barr joke: the best form of birth control is to play with your kids right before going to bed.
We also went through several of the personality tests. The major one we used was the red-blue-green test and in the end you could tell which you were in “okay” times and “not okay”. Most of us thought it was interesting and useful IF not carried to extremes. It was stressed that the best workgroup would have a mix of all three. One thing I remember was that you could lead with either of the three, but leading with your weakest strength would probably eventully make you ill or depressed or at the very least less productive.
Simply put they were:
Red = assertive, take charge
Blue = good people skills
Green = good with things and details
Have done some reading about the birth order thing and the age gap thing. I had 2 sisters much older than myself so I was more like a first born or in some respects like an only child.
I notice birth order characteristics in my children and grandchildren. I also believe the first girl in the family will be more like a first born regardless of her placement in the family. Don’t know if the same applies for boys.
My parents were both middle children and both very much bridge builders and people who rolled with the punches.
I think looking at all of these things is useful IF used in a positive way. Its all about self awareness and we can all benefit from being more self aware.
Wynette…that’s what we were taught about the colors system – that it’s a good idea to have as much diversity as possible within the work group. Actually, diversity on all levels is really important. Speaking of diversity, Wynette, what do you want to do about the guest post. Are you shaping your saga into narrative form for me???Can’t wait.
I will work it up and send along. May be useful—or maybe not—I’ll let you decide.
First: NOT making fun of anyone who finds personality tests helpful. Really.
I love the various personality tests and think they are tons of fun. I enjoy seeing what the results will be “this time around.”
I also love astrology and think that’s fun too. I mean, there’s nothing in one’s Sun sign that can’t be counteracted by Mercury in the First House of the Rising Sun divided by Pi.
Over the years I have been “Meyers Briggs-ed” and “Colored” multiple times, and the most fun part is that the results are broadly the same each time, but the actual specifics may completely change. I usually “fail” the Meyers-Briggs test by not being conclusively anything except an “N” (for whatever that means) but the other actual acronyms vary depending on the job, the day of the week, or the weather, I’m not sure which. Maybe all three plus whether or not I had a good breakfast.
RE: birth order, I’m a typical last child of a large family, separted by 7 years from my next oldest sibling, with nieces and nephews my own age; this may be why I have some last child attributes, some first child attributes, and even some middle child attributes.
Many of the qualities that are ascribed to me via personality tests or astrology can be summed up as: I am a typical Leo-last-child-performer, a typical Leo-first-child-green (or orange, depending) control freak, a typical Leo-blue-N broad visionary, a mixmash of blue-green-orange-MyersBriggs-alphabet soup, alast-child separated by 7-years-from-my-closest-sibling first child. Some days, and in some settings I am outspoken and gregarios. Some days, and in some settings, I am reserved, possibly even shy. I like to work collaboratively. I like to work alone. It depends.
My real takeaway from all of these tests is that I’d make a terrible cataloger (I knew that) or accountant because details, to be honest, bore me, and that beyond that, the many librarians I have met over the years seem to both meet and defy a multitude of “types.” I think that’s cool.
But we all do seem to be verbal and opinionated. I think that’s cool too.
Mercury in your first house would mean you appear to be a good communicator, although the first house is what others see in you, not nec. how you really are. As for dividing by pi, umm, that is not done, but I think you knew that.
In Library School I wrote a computer program to calculate aspects and parts, e.g. the Part of Fortune, in astrology charts. I passed the course. well, it was pass/fail, but I still passed.
Shirl…do you think we can just divide the world into 2 camps…detail people and big picture people?
I would say 10 camps.
Those who understand binary, and those who don’t.
NERD. At least you’re not a n00b who got pwnd, I guess…
To me, birth order, astrological signs and other personality tests are useful not for their individual results but that they get me thinking about what I do and how I do it. Life often moves fast and it’s easy to go on autopilot – when doing these tests I can stop and actually consider my characteristics of my personality.
Also, it’s kind of fun to subvert these tests. Do I think so because I’m a twin? Perhaps. Because I was born ten minutes before my brother? Perhaps again. Maybe my irreverent take on these “scientific” exams is a result of my parent’s genes? I dunno. So many factors, so little time.
Oleg,
What a great comment on the plethora of theories on behavior (e.g., birth order, Myers-Briggs, astrology). Suggesting that they should not be taken as a definitive source for personality analysis but that they should be used to help us reflect on our habits and behaviors and possibly adjust our patterns.
I had a friend, Radmar, who always used to say “patterns, patterns” and I would evaluate my actions and how I dealt with a particular situation. Now I say that to myself as a semi-occasional mantra, so that I am intentionally aware of how I am living/behaving…it has become a “pattern!”
Oleg…doing Briggs/Myers for 3 days beat the daily routine.
Was this a long weekend or three workdays?
I see the benefit of the latter much more than of the former.
I just had to be different. I am a youngest child but so much younger that I am really like an only child and my next oldest sister is really like a youngest child. She is 7 years older than me and was out of the house by 5th grade. I have a brother 11 years older than me, a sister 15 years older than me, and a sister 18 years older than me. I think I really ended up with characteristics of both an only and a youngest which has really left me confused.
I am very much a fixer, a person that does not procrastinate and tries to be perfect. At the same time I really enjoy my downtime and goofing off with my kids. Best of both worlds or worst?
Matt…I am as far from being a perfectionist as possible. Is perfectionism a daily struggle or does it add value to one’s life?
It is a struggle and one I have largely overcome at this point in my life. I no long agonize of things as I used to.