WILL UNWOUND #185: “Obstreperous, cantankerous, cacophonous, and necessary!” by Will Manley
July 27, 2010Over the past 40 years, I have been one of the library profession’s biggest advocates for children’s services in public libraries.
My advocacy for making children a budgetary priority has nothing to do with children and everything to do with the library. Quite simply children are the catalysts for getting the whole community involved in a library. I have seen this proven over and over again. If you want a successful library, you need to cater to children.
It’s a very important topic. In fact no topic is more important for public libraries right now. As a result, I will devote more posts to it in the future.
Today, however, the topic is children, pure and simple. Children are unruly, loud, frenetic, demanding, obstreperous, cantankerous, and cacophonous. They have not mastered or even learned the boundaries of civilized adult behavior.
As a result, many adults prefer the Hallmark concept of children (aren’t they cute) to the Dennis the Menace reality of children (aren’t they unruly). In certain places like a church, a hospital, or a library, the unruliness of children can be acutely problematic.
Sometimes this unruliness requires a bit of patience and a sense of humor. This past Sunday, a toddler interrupted Father Leo’s sermon with loud wailing. I counted five older adults who turned around and looked scornfully at the child’s mother. Father Leo saved the day by smoothly steering his sermon toward the concept of prayer. “Prayer takes many forms,” he intoned, “from the quiet reflective thoughts of the monastic hermit to the loud wailing of an infant. In this case the infant in the 3rd row is petitioning God to bring my sermon to closure. The child’s prayer has been answered. Now let us all thank God.”
But many adults are not nearly as tolerant as Father Leo. Many of these adults are library users who go to the library for some peace and quiet, and here is where a clash can occur. Children engage in several distracting activities including …wailing, whining, running, jumping, and pulling books off the shelves. This can be very disruptive to adult patrons who are trying to read, study, write, or sleep.
As a result, some libraries have rules prohibiting children from certain parts of the adult library. A couple of days ago when I was relating a story about my two year old granddaughter Sophia and her proclivity to make brilliant book selections for me, I casually mentioned that the two of us had been cordially asked by a librarian to leave the adult periodicals room of our local library, a library which I absolutely love. Apparently, they have an unposted rule that pre-school children are not allowed in that sanctum sanctorum. I was embarrassed, felt badly, and never returned to the periodicals room with a child in tow again. I do respect and understand the reason for the rule.
In the comment section of that post, a very, very interesting issue evolved. Unwinders went from discussing my book review of Forbidden Fruit to discussing the issue of children in the adult area of the library. There was an irony to this debate because I had quoted a passage from Forbidden Fruit in which it was stated that there was a time when women were prohibited from entering “male only” parts of the library because women were considered frivolous and distracting.
The unwinder debate started with this comment:
- “Will, I am really disappointed to learn you are one of the problem modern adults who think that the library manners are not meant for YOUR granddaughter. I may be saying good-bye to this blog as I don’t keep company with those who think that achieving quiet libraries is only done by having OTHER people’s children and grandchildren follow rules. I compliment that library for HAVING rules and for those librarians having the chutzpah to stand up to a librarian. Please, Will, say you won’t do this again. Ever.”
While, this comment tends to be rather critical of me, there is much in it that I absolutely agree with, and I’m very pleased the unwinder had the courage to post it. Parents, grandparents, and nannies should be responsible for their children. I was at fault for taking Sophia into the periodicals room but the library should have posted the rules.
That comment then led to this comment from another unwinder:
- “Why should kids be excluded from any part of a public library? They are part of the public, and will be voting on library bills all too soon. This is a public library, not a college library where your argument might make sense. This is rank discrimination against kids. Yes, kids are noisy. So are a lot of the adult population, especially, hard of hearing adults. And I see legal issues too. Remember several years ago when a homeless guy successfully sued a public library in the east I think. New Jersey? The librarians had tried to keep him out because he looked and smelled rotten as I recall. I’ll take a little kid dressed in a decent way over a homeless guy with likely mental issues. But the law says we have to have the homeless guy. I just saw your next comment. I think one reason they don’t have the rule posted is likely they know one good lawsuit by a disgruntled adult with a kid will be the end of that rule. It is POLITE of Will to avoid the periodical room.”
I can also see the merit in this comment and am equally glad that the unwinder had the courage to post it. This is the type of dialog that really motivates me to do this blog everyday. Thanks, unwinders.
Question of the day: Which side of the issue are you on? Is there a middle ground? Have at it.
I agree, children are the engine that make the public library run. When you attract children, you are bringing in entire families. The effect is wonderful. And yes, they can be loud, busy, and occasionally obnoxious. BUT we are here to serve everyone. How to create a welcoming space for everyone? Our solution was to create a “cone of silence” – the quiet room, where no talking is tolerated. There is no age distinction – all you have to do is be quiet in that space. As a matter of fact, our state library standards require that no one is discriminated against on the basis of age.
I’ve had toddlers in there quite happily paging through a picture book while Mom uses a reference book (the silent space is where our reference and much of the adult nonfiction resides). The most trouble we have enforcing the quiet rule is with tutors – they seem to think they are entitled to the room, and don’t think that their talking “counts” somehow.
And getting back to kids – often the worst ones are accompanied by equally awful parents who exercise no care or discipline at all and who seem to think that they are “special” and no rules ought to apply to them, like yapping on cell phones at the circ desk. How can these children be expected to act appropriately when their own parents aren’t acting so? But for the most part, we find the awful ones are vastly the minority, and have fun with the many pleasant, well mannered families who do come in. Takes all kinds to make a world.
Leslie, thanks for getting the ball rolling with an excellent, experienced, and wise comment. I love the “Quiet Zone” concept as long as it is clearly posted as such. I’m sorry, I like your term better…”Cone of Silence.” That to me, if your architecture permits it, is a great idea. On your other point, don’t you just love the parents who allow their children to dismantle the library under the guise that they are “exploring the physical space around them?” By the way, those kids are always gifted.
We’ve got signs at both entrances and inside the room – Shhh! Quiet Study Area! People really appreciate it.
Right, all our “special” children are gifted too! And apparently so are their parents. The operative question is – Gifted with what???
One question I think bears answering when trying to pick a side is, “Do library patrons have a right to expect a part of the library to be child-free?” Barring some sort of adult-only program (i.e. the showing of an R-rated film), I don’t think that is a reasonable expectation. For one thing, the library is a public space. You’re going to find the public in it. Gasp! Also, parents would have to a) never use child-free parts of the library unless they had a babysitter, or b) drop their kids in the Children’s Department for de facto babysitting while they go to the child-free space. Neither of those options makes any more sense than c) allow children into “adult” library spaces so long as they behave within the parameters of those spaces.
All that said, I do think that adults should be shooed out of the spaces for the 18-and-under crowd unless they are with a child or looking for an item. Keep movin’, Creepy McCreepster.
jess, when you reach 60 you become invisible to the tattoo and metal set. Teens simply don’t see you. You can go anywhere. You’re just part of the wall paper. It’s cool being an old person.
I have to say — I don’t see 60 as old!
To a multi tattooed, multi pierced, pants hanging on the ground teen, 60 is ancient.
I don’t understand limiting sections of the library on the basis of age ever. Why shouldn’t I be able to browse the YA section or the children’s section. Behavior should be what rules are about. When I was in library school I sent my husband to get some books for me for a children’s lit class. He was told he had to leave the children’s section. He could submit a list of materials to a staff person and she would retrieve them. At another larger urban library I was asked to leave the YA section when I was browsing for titles for my son. Again, I had to talk to a librarian and she could go in and select material and bring it out for me.
Are we Creepy McCreepsters? No, just library patrons who think we should be able to access the full collection.
In direct answer to the question. Behvior should be the subject of rules not age. Is a loud 40 year less disruptive in the periodicals room than a loud 7 year old?
Anon, I must not have been clear. Anyone, of any age, who wants to access the juvenile or YA collections should be free to do so. In my mind, there’s a difference between an adult going into a juvenile or YA space to browse the collection or supervise their child, and an adult who comes to the library alone and “hangs out” in a juvenile or YA space. Those spaces are for those age groups and their caretakers, and I don’t see a problem with libraries enforcing that.
The library I currently work at has a separate room for grades 6-12. I’m the YA librarian; it’s my responsibility to make that room a safe space for those patrons. I cannot come up with one good reason why an adult who wasn’t using the YA collection and wasn’t with a child would need to lurk there, and I would rather error on the side of protecting my patrons than on the side of allowing adults to use a space that isn’t intended for them.
jess, thanks for the clarification. This makes a lot more sense now, and I totally agree with you.
I’m glad you clarified. I love YA lit but would never want to hang out there. Shudder! I love my teen daughters but others I do not.
I’m an artist, and I need reference pictures – period. I found out, by accident or enlightenment, I don’t know – that children’s books have the absolute BEST pictures on the subject I’m looking for, most of the time.
I have never been harrassed for being in the YA section, and that’s great – honestly, I couldn’t have a librarian go and get things for me in the YA section on a certain subject…I have to look at the pictures to make sure they’re suitable for my project.
I can’t recall ever having a problem with noise in ANY library I’ve went to – most children do understand that the library is a “shhhhh….quiet” place, and they should be quiet while they’re there. When I was a kid, I loved the library (it fueled my love for reading and words), and I would cajole my little brother into thinking that being quiet was a game…I’m sure that the adults were thrilled!
Isn’t this really more of a parenting issue? How about have rules based on behavior? If this is a “quiet area,” be quiet! Shhhh! Just like old times. If this is a children’s area, you’re not going to have that rule. The better designed libraries separate the two areas, perhaps not completely, but enough so that you can have a story time without disturbing those quiet homeless gentlemen peeing on your upholstered chairs in the periodicals section.
I think there is no good reason to bar people from any area of the library because of age. A lot of those kids can read far above grade level. They might even be kind of tired of ‘Goodnight Moon’ and want to find something more substantive to read. Heaven forbid they find it in an ‘adult’ section.
When I was a kid I had read out all the science and science fiction in the library. I was still in grade school when I figured out ‘Paul French’ was a pseudonym for Isaac Asimov because the French books talked about positronic robot brains and the three laws of robotics. I nailed him when I was 9 years old.
Although the library allowed me to check out adult science fiction, that was not so for mysteries. I brought one up to the desk to check out and was told a note from my mother was required. That kind of thing is a real motivator for me (Some nurse once told me I would never fly a plane. I now have a pilot’s license. Thank you.) The next day I brought the note and checked out a dozen mysteries. I didn’t read them; it was the principle of the thing! How dare they tell me I couldn’t have a book!
Same rule here. Go back into that library WITH your granddaughter and have a ‘dialog’ with your local library administration about their stupid rule and how you expect a rule change to be in effect by the next Board Meeting or the SWHTF. C’mon, Will. Kick a little butt!
Mick, I love your comment and I love the concept of a cone of silence. The important thing is to post it as a quiet zone so there are no ambiguities. I love your story about going to the adult section for your books when you were a kid. When I grew up it was in some sense the reverse of that. Many of the classics…Treasure Island, 20,000 Leagues, and the Last of the Mohicans…were located in the children’s room. On the other hand my hometown library let us check out books from anywhere as long as our hands were clean (no kidding!).
I had the same experience as Mick – and our hometown library was built so that you had to go outside to get from the children’s area to the adult section. Even with a note from my Mom, I was only grudgingly allowed into the adult section when I entered the sixth grade. It was horrible. Maybe it’s the revenge factor that turned me into a librarian. Now I’m running the show, and the kids get to look at everything. Hah!
Age should not be the defining factor for access. Behavior is the key – that applies to people of all ages. I don’t let creepers lurk in the YA area, I don’t let teens bring their skate boards into the building, I don’t let rude people use their cell phones to annoy everyone else. We aim for civil discourse, and most days, that’s what we get.
Reminds me of my elementary school library. Each grade had shelves that the kids were allowed to pick books from, but I read several grades levels above. My mom went in to talk to the librarian and the librarian refused to let me pick books from an upper grade. 15 yrs. later, I interviewed this librarian for a class. She still had her shelves and did nothing but complain of how the administration was making her put computers in the library.
I grew up in a suburb of Philadelphia with very little financial support for the library, so my childhood reading reflected the trends of earlier generations: the Bobbsey Twins, the Little Maida series, Tom Swift, Hardy Boys, Tarzan, etc. I don’t know if these were leftovers from long ago purchases or gifts from older adults clearing out their own childhood bookcases.
I remember the anticipation with which I awaited the birthday that would allow me to go up those few stairs to the adult area and a whole lot of new books (Emily Loring, Clarence Buddington Kelland, Thomas Hardy, Alexandre Dumas, etc.) – I didn’t say they were newer in publication, just new to me!
As one of their most avid readers, I was even allowed by the librarians to take out books from the tiny new book section – only two at a time. A great privilege – they knew I’d bring them back in a day or two. And we did have some new books – a whole shelf about 3 feet long – their entire science fiction collection.
I also remember going to the school library in the combined junior-senior high as soon as school opened that fall – the first day. I was so disappointed that it wasn’t open until the next week. But when it did, there was a whole collection available to me, and these were new books, modern, some hot out of publishers’ shipping boxes. Science fiction – Robert Heinlein and Andre Norton, and even my first romances: Georgette Heyer.
So I feel for those of you who underwent the same age restrictions.
They don’t have to be homeless to pee on the upholstered chairs in our periodicals section. We had a regular who walked here from home daily, apparently expressly to pee on our chairs.
Will,
First of all let me say that I am a children’s librarian. I think this warning let’s others know that I have a fairly good tolerance for noise.
I feel a public library is just that for the public; the whole public and nothing but the public. A person, regardless of age or other category, should be able to be in any part of the library.
We have had some folks in our public library complain about the noise levels (not just kids but folks on their cell phones, adults, etc.) I try to remind them gently that public libraries are no longer quiet masoleums/study areas but community centers. As long as people are speaking with inside voices and not hollering or making a scene,it is acceptable. I do suggest that if they need absolute quiet to study or read to use one of the study rooms.
Allyson, I really believe this is an area where there are generational differences. One person’s idea of quiet may be another person’s tower of babel. I truly believe that generations that predate the origin of rock music and the invention of the cell phone have a different idea of what quiet is. And that is precisely the problem that librarians are trying to sort out. Finally, if one can’t find quiet in the library, where does one go? By the way, you are in a noble profession and thanks for what you do. As a grandpa, I have morning child care duties and I’ve got my hands full. It’s definitely tougher than my admin jobs before I retired.
You are so right about ideas of quiet, Will. For me, silence is quiet. For one of my dearest friends silence is like a punishment worse than death. Much as I love him, I can’t spend more than a couple hours with him. His noise and busyness drive me to distraction, though he says he loves my nice quiet home. I am not convinced though – he’s kinda like the Pigpen of noise.
“Pigpen of noise”…you get a shout-out for that, Ellen!
Everyone seems to have heard about the NJ case but nobody seems to remember that the smelly guy lost when the library appealed the case. The court decided that the library had the right to set standards of behavior.
This is a topic I did a bit of research on, because we had some really rancid members of the public in my library, and our administration was reluctant to do anything about it, citing the NJ case. We had one guy who could clear the whole wing of the library, and the odor lingered on long after he had left. I eventually told my boss that I could not stay at the reference desk because I was becoming nauseous, and I have a bad sense of smell – I can barely even smell skunk.
Eventually, the library conceded, and said we could ask our security to remove people that were really bad “if the public complained.” Unfortunately, what usually happened is that the public would leave without saying anything, thinking that we could or would do nothing about it. I would take their body language as a complaint, even if they did not verbalize their discomfort, and call security. (Their body language was very obvious!)
Children are a different story. You’re right – very little ones really don’t/can’t understand the rules about quiet. But if parents didn’t act to teach them, or their older siblings, how to behave, I had no problem asking them to take the kids to the children’s room. It’s hard enough for the many adults who have gone back to school these days to find a quiet place to study, without having that kind of disruption.
It is long long ago, in a place far far away, but I do believe that I learned/was taught very early that there were different standards of behavior for different places – libraries and churches being quiet places, stores allowing louder talking, but running around was reserved for outdoors or recess.
I do sympathize with your first commentator, because I’ve seen an awful lot of parents who seemed to believe that their offspring had more rights than anyone else.
Unlike the second person you quoted, I feel that for many people, the public library IS their college library. It is not rank discrimination against kids to ask that they follow the adult rules of behavior in the adult section of the library.
birdy, thanks for the background on the NJ homeless guy case. I shall have to do a post on that. Also, I think a big issue with children in public places today, is a different, more permissive approach to child rearing. Today strict discipline is considered overly restrictive for children who want to explore the world around them. I’m definitely not saying this is right, but it is the new attitude of entitlement among many young yuppie parents.
As it happens, one of the posts featured on WordPress’s “Freshly Pressed” today is called “The Price of Fear,” and it makes the point that such lawsuits as the NJ homeless-guy case can have a chilling effect even when they are ultimately thrown out: “In reality, the number of successful crazy cases is small, but they change behavior.”
http://houldsworth.wordpress.com/2010/07/27/the-price-of-fear/
Disclaimer: I do not have children & do not work in the children/youth areas of the library. I was also slightly traumatized as a 5 year-old when the scary librarian reprimanded me for sweetly & very quietly singing “Silver Bells” while looking for a book one cold December night (it was my sister & mother’s fault for singing it in the car on our way to the library) & now I make sure to hold annual holiday music programs to make the old lady spin in her grave. So take what I say with a grain of salt.
Little kids are cute, particularly one at a time. En masse, they can be intimidating. And if one is elderly, with shaky footing or with a cane, running children can be dangerous.
But would I ban them? Nope. Might want to ban their parents who think it’s fine to let them run screaming across the tile floor (which is one reason I prefer carpeting) or let them run amok while they do their personal connecting in the computer lab (do they not know that libraries really aren’t that safe for unsupervised children?)
Give me a cranky 2-year-old over a hormone-ridden adolescent any day. I’m just jealous that I can’t kick, scream, & cry when I’m so overloaded and in need of a nap. Now, that’s not to say that I don’t stop children from racing around the library or tell them to not yell at each other or kindly mention that pulling books off the shelves is not acceptable behavior. Kids need to know what the boundaries are, that rules must be followed & there are consequences to bad behavior. And if we as the “adults in charge” allow such behavior in our libraries then we have only ourselves to blame. I may feel like snatching them bald-headed but I don’t. And often times, the worst offenders are the ones who most need the library.
Many of my co-workers would be shocked by my views, as they think I’m anti-child. Granted, I prefer dogs but I’m OK with kids. Just don’t want to work around them much but most of them do grow up & I want them to have a good memory of the library. And Will, you are welcome to bring Sophie to my library any time & peruse our periodicals together. I’ll even let her sing.
CarolAnn…great, honest comment, and by the way, Sophia loves to sing. Her favorite song is “Do you know the Muffin Man.” She can sing that song 27 times in the car between her house and the library. I will tell you this, watching two kids all day is tougher than running a library. Really!
Because we are a small branch with only 5 internet-accessible computers, we often get the complaint from adult patrons “Can’t you get that kid off of the computer. I need to do some work and he’s just playing games.” I love my colleague’s response, “That child has a library card just like you. I can make a reservation for you for the next available computer or may I suggest you visit our Main Library which has 80 internet computers.”
Yes, children bring the rest of the community to the library. We designed an Adult Summer Reading program to mirror the chidren’s program because the kids bring adults in with them.
I agree with the other Unwinders, though, that libraries should clearly post what we call “Noise Zones” throughout the building so that patrons know what level of conversation will be permitted in each interior location and so staff have clearly at hand the “rules” when they need to be enforced.
I will not throw a kid off of the computer nor deny him any book, but when I want to work quietly, I seek out the “Silent Reading Room.” I don’t care who’s in that room, other than that they are QUIET.
I love this story, Donna. Thanks for sharing. I have actually seen this phenomenon at the computers in my library. Fortunately, the librarians always stick up for the rights of children to be at those computers.
Noise is a behavioral issue, and often a parenting and etiquette issue, but we could mitigate noise simply through thoughtful design of our buildings.
That seems to not be done much, as library architects are into creation of grand spaces in support of an artistic vision that they’ve schnockered the board and the director into. Sue Kamm, a regular on WUW, has told me about how the particular design and materials chosen for her library have turned it into an immense sound-amplifying and echo chamber.
I’ll simply make a plea here that if you are a director or library board member, you should pressure your architect into designing a building that works with, not against, how patrons and staff want to use it. Sound blocking and sound absorption should figure into any new design, or any renovation of an existing space.
Joe, you make a very good point. If the 70s were the worst period for fashion (the era of the lime green leisure suit) it was also the worst era for library and school architecture because that was when the idiotic open library/open classroom concept came into vogue. 5 years later, the architects who designed those monstrosities then got paid twice for redesigning them with interior walls. Then, you are right, with good economic times we moved into the grandiose statement (read multi storied atrium echo chamber) architecture that we are now stuck with.
I think of the 70s as ushering in the Age of Bad Design, which to some degree is still with us. I still remember the doorknobs on a building I worked in in the 80s. Think of a cylinder about four inches long and 2 1/2 in diameter. Then think of it with a taper. If it tapers with the smaller diameter away from you and the bigger diameter toward you, that’s a reasonably good design for pulling on, right? So of course these doorknobs, designed I have no doubt in the 70s, were tapered with the larger end by the door and the smaller end toward the user. And for that final Bad Design touch, they were made out of brushed aluminum. Next to impossible to get a grip on, and so unpleasant to the touch I can still feel that texture 20-odd years later. Ugh. *shudder*
All right, I will stop with the digressive rants for now and get back to rewriting job descriptions.
Right on, Joe! I’ve been complaining about this for years. Every library I’ve seen that was built in the 90s has an “atrium,” which, as you’ve said, is another name for echo chamber. Besides the noise factor, it’s wasted space – people don’t want to hang out in this huge, cold space. And we have to pay for heating this useless space during the long, cold Northeast winters. I imagine the bill for cooling is even higher than our heating bill in climes like yours in Arizona where these atriums serve as solar panels.
I don’t think children should be excluded from any part of a public library.
However, I do think that parents, being responsible for their children, should be courteous enough to other patrons not to allow their children to continually run, jump, scream and/or be boisterous in other way in public libraries.
Should we, the staff in public libraries, expect that kids will be kids and thus will be loud and boisterous while they are in the library? Absolutely. Should staff scold every parent of a child that is momentarily boisterous? I would say no. Sometimes kids are boisterous and loud because they are kids and if their parents tend to them – then that’s fine.
However, I do think that there is a combination courtesy and entitlement issue that rears its head in public libraries today – in regards to kids.
It is one thing for a fussing or boisterous child to be spoken too, picked up and held and/or generally tended to by his or her caregiver who may need some time to quiet said child; however, it is another thing completely for parents to completely ignore their children while they are in the library and allow them to run wild.
At my library, and on an almost daily basis, we see incidents where parents bring in infants or toddlers and then sit down at a computer in the adult section to play a game or social network and ignore their fussing or screaming child who is sitting right next to them in a stroller.
And with older children, say 7-13 of age or so, we see parents who drop their kids off at the library and just plain leave them there — sometimes all day long. And since the kids understandable eventually get board it is a small wonder that they turn loud and boisterous in their attempt to have fun – which would be fine if they did it outside but it is not fine in the library.
Basically I see parents of children like those I just mentioned as being rude, even more so than their children, because it is their personal responsibility to take care of their children and to be courteous to other patrons by doing so in a public library setting where most patrons still want and expect a quiet environment. But then that is the entitlement issue again – apparently these parents think they are entitled to ignore their kids while they are on the computers or looking for a book and likewise they don’t care if other patrons are bothered by the unruly behavior of their children.
And in answer to the question of is there middle ground on this issue or not I think you have to welcome all age groups in public libraries and take care of each case of loud and boisterous children based upon the circumstances at the time. I will say I do think that children are allowed to get away with much more in public today than they did when I was growing up – I don’t recall as many children being boisterous in public libraries, restaurants, movie theaters etc when I was growing as compared to today and of course my mother wouldn’t have allowed me to act like that when I was a little tyke she’d have either quieted me down or picked me up and taken me out of the public place. …
And Will if you ever decide to impose a word limit on these posts just let me know! As I know I do tend to go on a bit. You might say I’m passionate about libraries!
No word limit, Linda R. I love your comments. Keep them coming. Without a doubt you are correct. Child rearing today is dramatically more permissive than it was in the past. The concern today is to allow the child to explore the world and to be sure and not stifle his or her imagination. Also, Linda, I think we just live in a noisier world. Cell phones have changed the boundaries of public decorum. While we are at it, let’s think about the word “rude.” To me rude means that you are intentionally being obnoxious. You know you are crossing a social boundary but you don’t care. You are more concerned with the “me” than the “us.” But I don’t see a lot of these parents as rude. I see them as oblivious to social norms. They just don’t get it and in some ways that’s a bigger problem than rudeness.
I think most people are just self-absorbed – they don’t even think about other people. And then there’s my mantra that describes the behavior of too many people: “Everyone knows their rights; nobody knows their responsibilities.” Not too grammatical, but I think it covers much of what is happening in society.
As a former children’s librarian in a public library and then librarian in a primary (elementary) school, I felt I had to post on this issue…
No public library, anywhere, can afford to prohibit children from any section of the library. These kids are the library users and advocates of the future – turn them away at your peril.
If you have a quiet area for people to work or read, enforce the quiet rule – not a “no kids” rule. Certainly, if children’s noise level gets out of hand, poilitely ask them to lower it.
Bottom line – a public librarian serves THE PUBLIC. This includes children, from babes in arms to surly teens.
This is not a complex issue in my mind at all!
Sue O., it is a complex problem. When I take my grandkids to the library, 90% of our time is spent in childrens, but then I have library needs too. I can’t just leave the kids in childrens and wander off to adult. I have to take them with me and be quick about it. Lately, it doesn’t seem to be worth the hassle. So I just bike back to the library in the afternoon when the kids are napping.
We have some thoughtful parents who make sure their kids visit the children’s area first to pick out their books, then come upstairs & get them settled on the window seats across from the adult collection (we had architects who were actual library users & they listened to the staff most of the time) & they read (or look at pictures) until Mom and/or Dad have gotten their haul. They are always within eye & earshot & they make some really adorable scenes that bring a smile to even this cranky librarian’s face. So it’s possible for adults to bring young children with them & it’s an opportunity to teach them how to behave in public (though I will admit that sometimes storytimes can really crank them up & they need to get their material checked out & head out ASAP.) Often the loudest noise comes from those kids who don’t want to give up their book, DVD, or whatever to the circ staff to check out. That’s when the howls start but really, how can you blame them? They don’t want to give up their precious book–now that’s a kid I can relate to!
Thinking back to my days in the public library, yes, children can be unruly but often the parents are the real problem. If kids are that wild in public, what must they be like at home? No place I want to visit, that’s for sure!
I work in an academic library and, occasionally, children are a problem. Adult students may need to study, but their children don’t belong in our library. I cannot tell you how often we’ve had someone come in with their kids in tow and proceed to log them onto computers (a violation of IT use policy to begin with, terrifically selfish when there are tuition-paying students unable to use the computers) or allow them to wander about bothering people who are trying to study. We have a children-in-the-library policy and we enforce it. If the parents object, we’re happy to call campus police.
Public libraries are a completely different matter. I have fond memories of the librarian who taught me how to use catalog and locate books when I was all of about six years old. We left that small town and moved to a much larger city in the South. It may have been a larger place but, being the South, the minds were smaller. I’ve never forgotten the old crab who tried to dictate what my sister and I could and could not check out. I don’t know if it was my father or mother who took the old biddy to task, but we were never questioned about our choice of books again. I was reading adult fiction by the time I was in sixth grade. My parents had the enlightened philosophy that we would read up to our level of understanding – beyond that, they trusted us to use a dictionary, ask them questions (let’s do some research, kids!!) or find something a bit easier to read.
As for age – 60 isn’t old. My mother, at 80, might be considered old but she’s still got some kick to her! No tats though.
Ellen, thanks for sharing the story of your youth. Times were so different then. My 60 is old comment is relative to the multi tattooed youths of today. To them I am ancient. Come to think of it, I play golf every afternoon and I do feel a bit creaky during the last two holes. For me 60 is 60; it is not the new 35.
Most days I am surprised SURPRISED to realize I’m 51. Then there’s that odd day when I feel every second I’ve ever lived. I prefer the former.
My first time commenting in your blog. I am a 17-year public librarian who is 65 now, with three tats (and counting) and 7 earrings. Sometimes I feel much older but my thinking remains, I hope, about what it was 35 years ago. It helps to self-define with those frightful words liberal and feminist.
When I was a child I loved the library. I especially loved sneaking into the adult section and spending hours with New Yorker cartoon books. I am sure some (most) of them were over my head but I sure did enjoy them, tho I couldn’t check them out.
I work in an academic library, and we have a no unattended kids rule, that also extends to any minor not enrolled in our classes. Our library is one big room, unruly kids are really distracting, and as it was built in the 70′s, we have a central “pit” area. After a small child fell into it (he squeezed between a column and a wall), the library director posted a sign about the unattended children. We don’t have too many problems – as long as the child sits quietly we are all ok. We don’t have a strict “no noise” policy, either, so some talking is allowed.
I think that children that are not able to control themselves should not wander unattended in a public space. I don’t care if it is a library or a grocery store or government agency or wherever.
Lisa, I totally agree with you, but kids run wild everywhere because clueless parents think they are exploring the world around them. Today every child is gifted.
Lisa, you make a very valid point. Living in a large city, I can say without a doubt that the library is a haven for pervs. Whether I was at the main library or a branch we always had problems with oglers, leerers, secret touchers (you were never quite sure if you’d been felt up), exhibitionists, etc. Unattended children have no business in a public library – the ugliest elements of our society know where to find victims.
Ellen, as a grandfather, I simply cannot imagine leaving my grandkids alone in a library. That’s just asking for a “Deep End of the Ocean” situation. Horrors!
I’m a children’s librarian and, like Allyson mentioned above, I have a very good tolerance for noise. I think the problem is threefold: everyone has a different view of what and how a library should be AND everyone has a different concept of noise AND everyone has a different tolerance level for noise. These three factors combined create a minefield when it comes to how a library deals with the children who walk through that door and the children’s department and its programs. Every day, hundreds of kids walk past my desk and I get to see these three factors come into play. One parent’s example of an inside voice is another parent’s screaming. And my idea of unacceptable library behavior for children is different from the children’s librarian in the library one town over. And for every patron who loves seeing all the little kids coming in for programs during the summer reading program, you have a patron who grumbles that they’re too loud.
Of course, as it’s been mentioned by many posters, it’s not just the kids who are to blame for noise in the library. Yes, parents play a part in it but there are plenty of adults who come to the library and behave worse than most of the kids in my 3-5-year-old storytime. But, with the exception of teenagers, it’s easiest to point the finger at the kids and at the children’s room. They’re noisy and wild and sticky and they are hard on books. And they don’t pay taxes! And the services children’s librarians provide for these kids are, on the surface, fluffy and silly and lacking any type of real intellectual merit and, most importantly, noisy! So, of course, kids get the blame for creating a culture of chaos and children’s librarians get to be the thorn in the side of many libraries for encouraging that chaos and spending money to continue the chaos.
Kate H….I don’t have any problem with noise levels in the children’s room. I am a guy who feels that absolute silence = quiet. But I don’t expect and wouldn’t want a quiet children’s room. Let’s not go back to the 1950s. On the other hand, I would like at least one room in the adult section to be quiet. Here’s the rub: many people today do not know what quiet is. Their children key off of that. Oh, and by the way, thanks for what you do in the children’s room.
Thanks Will. I apologize for getting a bit rant-y by the end
I’d agree with you (and previous posters) that a silent area is a better (and necessary) option. We’re planning to build a new library (current one is from the 1960s with the kids room practically on top of the front desk and the internet work stations) and I pleaded for a designated silent area far far away from the children’s room and the front desk and the internet stations. Thankfully, our director agreed. Academic libraries have long figured out that just because learning commons are the new thing doesn’t mean that a silent reading room isn’t necessary (and might be even more necessary in order to balance everything out). And you’re so right about most people not knowing what real silence is. Our society is unbelievably over stimulated and with that, true silence goes by the wayside.
I’m a kids’ librarian. I’m also hard of hearing. Which means that I am not always aware that I am speaking loudly. I don’t mind a gentle comment from a friend or coworker (or even a patron) that perhaps I could lower the volume. However, I’ll come out fighting if someone complains about the volume of the hearing impaired school kids that came to my old branch. Their teachers tried HARD to control the noise, but there is a concept problem here. If you can’t hear yourself, you tend to talk louder so you can hear. These kids were none too sure what loud meant as a concept, never mind TOO loud! You can be sure that I was too loud as a kid as well but my parents would tell me if I were too loud. Which echoes in reverse what many have said about the real problem being uninterested parents who are certain Junior is gifted. My basic point is that there are all sorts of reasons why someone is loud. Someone (Will?) defined rude needing deliberateness as a factor, not just the inappropriate behavior. I’d agree with that concept. Times have also changed. Because some older people remember days when libraries were sanctuaries of quiet, does not mean they can expect that these days. Honestly, I’m just as glad. I want people to feel comfortable in the library. Oh, I’ll tell the kids to keep it down to a dull roar on occasion when it was getting out of control (usually a group of teens) but I would express it that way in hopes that the kids would understand that I am not demanding total silence, but some consideration that there are others in the building. Especially since that branch had one of those open architecture arrangements.
Joan…thanks for what you do working with children. What gets me is when I hear adult services librarians refer to the children’s room as the library’s toy department and that the children’s librarians do nothing but play all day.
I think that concept that we play all day is more irritating than the “what a nice job you have where you can read all day!” comment. I might actually handle an honest to goodness toy every now and then: almost always to distract an upset kid. When I listen to a magic show, I’m busy making sure the magician has everything s/he needs for the show, submitting invoices, counting heads, channelling people to empty areas to enjoy the magician, snapping photos to show granters what we are doing with their money, running crowd control, and often answering a ref question or two all at the same time. Then I have to clean up after the event! This excludes all the prep work and post show work I need to do as well. I enjoy being with the kids, but I’m not playing, I’m WORKING. I could see having to explain that to the public but it is infuriating to have to explain that to coworkers. Grrr….
It is not the children or anyone else who should be banned from parts of a library but rather certain behaviors should be banned. Both children and adults should be held to the same standards. Education of children includes educating them on correct behaviors in social situations and removing them when they are unable to follow through properly, which again is good adult behavior.
Amy…in theory you are correct. But what I have discovered in my dotage is that teaching pre-schoolers the norms of civilized life is at best a slow evolutionary process. It takes time and requires patience on everyone’s part. Babies pop out of the womb wailing. From there on, it’s a slow process of maturation…very slow. Let’s be civil, yes, but let’s be a understanding and patient.
Our society’s ability to control family size has led to an over-indulgence of the children we do have. Back when kids just happened, there was a generally recognized need to keep the pack in check, lest they take over. But even in our low fertilty world, adults are still in charge and should make the rules that benefit society as a whole. “Children should be seen and not heard.” Remember that? Probably a bit severe as strict policy in our child enlightened age, but a good ideal to keep in mind in the library, nonetheless. As a laymen I would say posted “adults only” spaces in the library are totally appropriate.
Bill, I hear you, but have a huge problem with signs that say “only.” Brings to mine “Men Only” (Augusta National) and “Whites Only” (the Jim Crow South). How about “Quiet Zone?”
We’ve elminated legal ethnic and racial discrimination. We might want to retain some legal gender discrimination. (I’m thinking at a minimum public restrooms.) But age discrimination? It’s everywhere! We obviously need to discriminate based on age. Children cannot have equal access. How about posting “Age 5 (6, 7,..whatever) and up”? A restricted adult space is not “Jim Crow”!
Dear Will,
I believe and have seen the ability of a child to be quiet (for a limited time) under the supervision of an adult. I disagree with the policy that children are not allowed in the periodicals section of the library.
I believe the best practice would be to post a sign stating that this particular section of the library is a quiet area. “Those who are able to remain quiet during the duration of their visit to the periodicals section are welcome to enter.”
I completely agree with you, Patricia. Thanks for the comment.
I remember being very little (probably around 5) and going to the adult section of the library with my mom. We always went to the children’s section first and could be louder and pick out books. Then we had to be quiet when we went with mom to get her books. My sister and I were well behaved kids, so we were quiet in the appropriate parts of the library. That being said, even if we were not totally silent, so what? The adult section of the library is not a reading room. There is no rule that says you can’t talk there. I think people get a little freaky about the noise level of a library. I went to a large public university for undergrad and grad school and was in the library often. There were quite floors in the library and if I needed to study, I would go there. I would also frequent the public library and it was not quite. It was busy and active and full of noise. In the adult fiction section. Oh no! What will we do? It usually wasn’t kids making noise, it was adults. There was a silent reading room, but otherwise, there was noise. It is unreasonable to expect an open fiction collection to be silent in a public library. The public is noisy. The Reference librarians are helping people. Students are working on project. If you want silence, you need to go to a reading room or something of the sort. Libraries are social places and not the silent shushed places they once possibly were.
Kelly, great comment, and I totally agree with you. The key is to provide a well posted quiet area. I also think the posting should define what quiet is…”no cell phones.”
Will…loud cheers re cell phones! And dream on!
I like the concept of a quiet room – it makes no difference who is in there as long as they are quiet.
Ditto.
Yes, but let’s define quiet. Does that mandate that you turn off your cell phone before entering the quiet room?
Yes, turn the cell off. In fact, turn it off when you enter the library. How many calls are really important – I mean lives are at risk important? Very few.
Children running amok can annoy me but cell phones are just as bad. Answer that phone and I’m walking away from the reference desk – and I can go where you’ll never find me.
We have a seperate room for the children and this does help. In the room are some internet computers as well as the books, games, etc. for the kids. Parents who need to use the Internet can use the computers in the children’s room and their children can go read and be noisy without bothering other adult patrons.
Mick– my daughter at 8 was reading Stephen King’s It. She loves horror books and the children’s books are to tame for her. Thankfully for her– she’s never been denied.
Gretchen, I like the fact that parents can use the children’s computers thus alleviating the need for them to drag their kids into the adult computer area.
There is a middle ground, and it’s approximately the same one we have adopted with cell phones. You are welcome to bring your cell phone (read: child) into the adult area as long as its use/presence is not disruptive to other patrons. Bring and use your cell phone, if you can manage to keep your conversation short and your voice lowered. Bring your child into the adult area, if you can manage to keep him/her reasonably quiet and don’t let them run around pulling books off the shelves. The occasional happy or sad outburst from a child is okay, and most patrons are tolerant. It’s when the child is continuing to be loud, running around, attacking the shelves – and the accompanying adult just ignores it! – that patrons start to glare.
Personally, I love to see kids on the adult side. Nothing makes me happier than to hear a young person quietly singing the Winnie the Pooh song in the stacks when I am at the reference desk. It’s generally not the children who have bad manners. They don’t know any better. It’s the parents who need a refresher course in public behavior.
Amy, I guess that we would all hope that people would be as reasonable as possible. Unfortunately with cell phones, I have found that that is not the case.
I love that most public libraries are no longer a “shhhhh” zone, but really support the concept of different areas to meet everyone’s needs, especially a quiet room if at all possible for those users who come for a quiet place to study/read. I don’t think we are going to solve the problem of overly permissive parents here, so one last comment. The other day a mother was dragging her screaming daughter out of the library. I was pleased to see that she was removing the misbehaving child. Then I realized that the little girl was screaming “I don’t wanna leave the library.”
LOL. We need a laugh here. Thanks, Mary Ellen.
Our library doesn’t restrict areas, but we do mandate supervision. No child under 7 can be in the library without a responsible older person. (Teens are fine as long as they actually do the job and don’t give all their attention to MySpace.) We also reserve the right to ask you to leave if the children are disruptive. A customer of mine used to bring his 2 children while he did genealogy. The boy, who as about 8, was no trouble, but the little girl, who may have been 3, was simply to young to endure the hours of sitting. She would either roam the room, pulling books of the shelf and pulling drawers out of the card catalog or she would wail constantly in her father’s embrace. One afternoon, after watching my other customers move from one end of the room to the other to avoid the noise, I had to ask him to leave. He never came back and I felt bad about it. Children use our public computers, both by themselves and with their parents. The children themselves aren’t usually a problem but I wish we could restrict our computers to adult users only for a practical reason. Children usually want to play games and we’re not set up for them–no headphones, no game software.
Beth O., thanks for sharing your story about the genealogy guy, but did he really think you were his child care option? Don’t feel bad about doing your job on behalf of the other patrons.
I remember a lady towing a tiny child up to the reference desk and demanding, “Who does this child belong to? I just found her at the top of the escalator.” I thanked her, called security, and held the little girl on my lap at the reference desk, amusing her by drawing pictures, until the public service announcement was made and the father finally showed up – it had to be about 10 or more minutes later. The reason the little girl couldn’t tell me her name? She only spoke Russian.
I agree with those who have suggested that it is behavior that should be regulated, not age. And it is often the behavior that parents are allowing…
It reminds me… I am such a librarian… of a maxim I read somewhere “what we allow is what we teach.” Public librarians may have an opportunity to “teach” children, who ARE the future of libraries, just a little about good behavior in the library. And can I say that “my” library does not allow dogs, but some dogs (who sneak in one way or another) behave much better than some children. And their parents. Should I have saved this for Friday?
Susan…children will always be children. They are trying to figure things out in a very difficult world. For the child it is always about me. The challenge is introducing the “us” to their world view. Too many parents are poor role models. For them the “me” predominates the “us.” Can librarians serve as parental correctors? It’s dicey.
The design for our library expansion calls for the children’s area to be the sole department on the second floor. It has its downsides but two upsides are that they can be as noisy as Miss Cathy allows without disturbing the grown-ups and any adult who appears to just be hanging around without an accompanying child or who isn’t accessing the collection will stand out.
I like that plan a lot, Stacey. Let us know how it works.
Though I don’t work in a public library, I do have two grown daughters and two young granddaughters. We all love the library. When my girls were young, we went to our small branch. I could leave the girls in the children’s room and go over to the adult section for brief times. I would hear if they got noisy or take 3 steps to see them. So this wasn’t a problem for our family. (OK, my younger daughter was an obnoxious teen, but she loved to read so barely kept out of trouble. Now she’s a librarian w/o a job.) But I know it’s a problem when someone disrupts the library.
Before I started reading the posts my solution matched many others. If the library is large enough, establish a Quiet Zone. I wouldn’t forbid children in any area, but would instead ask for control. Yes, the area should be posted as a quiet area so there isn’t any confusion. I believe cell phones should be on mute in the library and used outside. (I broke that rule once in what I thought was an empty study area. I quickly learned it wasn’t when someone yelled at me across the stacks.)
But I believe the general noise of people in the library is a good thing. Like many of us, I grew up in the “quiet” library. It seemed restrictive although it never stopped me from getting the books I wanted. My aunt was a children’s librarian for the downtown Cincinnati Hamilton County Public Library. I visited her there and for the first time saw how the normal children’s noise made the room more alive and friendly. It’s definitely more inviting if you feel comfortable in an area.
Vicki H….good point we don’t want to go back to the days of the library being the town morgue.
First of all if the library has a rule that they want followed I highly suggest they post it. You can not follow the rules if you do not know about them.
As for loud unruly children in the library, I place responsibility on the parent. We have several what I consider very inconsiderate parents that drag their young children to the library so that they can sit for hours on the computer and play on Facebook, leaving their children to run amuck in the library. Often the parents yelling at their children are louder then the children themselves.
Our Children’s Librarian does an excellent job in not only creating programs but also modeling and teaching appropriate library behavior. When children are present there is going to be noise, you just want to make sure that it is good noise, there is nothing sweeter then the sound of a child laughing.
Susan…I love this comment. You are right, when my grandkids are laughing, there is a good chance that I’m laughing!
I will now probably be selected to be stoned to death w/ actual rocks…
Personal responsibility is required of each person in order for the community to function in a such a manner that everyone’s freedom and happiness (yes Happiness) is maximized.
Laws (read perhaps rules in our case) are promulgated in order to support freedom and happiness. Freedom does not translate into anarchy and individual happiness does not either when it violates the communities happiness. (Think smoking in public spaces). We can legislate out stinks if we decide to.
Where law fails, is when they take the agenda of a singular individual over that of the community in such a way that either freedom or happiness of the community is violated. Think exceptional-ism.
In such cases – laws get ignored. Illegal immigration is a great example in point, for exceptional-ism and its resulting chaos.
I am much in favor of laws which regulate behavior where personal responsibility is ignored or absent and I am not a great fan of exceptional-ism. So, shame on you Will in broad scope, but not shame on you if your child in tow was being well behaved at the time and it was not “posted”, tho any court will tell you ignorance of the law (rules) is no excuse.
Being homeless is not particularly a crime which requires being banned from the library. Being a public health hazard probably is. Being mentally ill is not a crime, however when an individual becomes a hazard to themselves or others they can be involuntarily committed. Stinky cigarettes can be banned – so follow the logic eh…
If librarians were smart, they’d use the laws on the books regarding public health and/or mental illness to remove the great unwashed which offend against the public happiness and exemplify the lack of personal responsibility.
Nobody feed me the lack of facilities argument – I lived out of my VW camper bus for over 6 months and didn’t become a bio-hazard…if you want to keep clean you can.
Kids are kids, most libraries have an area or a room just for them – stray adults are generally not welcomed there. It works that way in the adult areas. Since kids can’t be sent away to a particular island imagined by William Golding – adults have to suck it up and be responsible and teach responsibility until the little barbarians reach their majority – when they have to become responsible for their own actions.
A rule of “exceptions” in the law, in the library or in society benefits no one.
My 2 cents. Now ducking rocks… John D. Berry
No rocks from this quarter, John. In fact you might appreciate the post from Houldsworth’s Random Ramblings that I mentioned in a comment above. One of the points he makes is, “We should judge laws by their effect on society as a whole. We can no longer afford to run our society by the lowest common denominator.”
http://houldsworth.wordpress.com/2010/07/27/the-price-of-fear/
John, how about a small pebble? I like what you are saying, but how do we make it work in our libraries? Don’t I have a right to take my granddaughter in the adult area so that she can pick out a good book for me. What if she is a babbling brook? Is that worse than a warbling cell phone. My point is that we live in an increasingly noisy world, much of which is beyond our control.
No more or less of a right than any 18+ year old guy without kid(s) in tow, has to hang out in the Children’s room Will…
But is it welcomed by your community and is it comfortable and do you want to argue that its ok – this time – or cuz of xyz?
Remember what I said about exceptional-ism.
Of course you will not be bothered nor your Granddaughter – if some other adult exercises their right to say; “Control your child.” …and all the other adults cheer vocally or silently – lol.
PS I’m horrified you would usurp someone’s job for reader’s advisory by a non-professional Librarian.
What can I say, John. She’s gifted.
We have the good fortune to have two floors, and this makes the whole issue a lot simpler for us. First floor is the kids’, YA, and AV areas; second floor is adult, including books, adult audiobooks and nonfiction DVDs (and feature-film DVDs with no English-language content), magazines and newspapers, and a small high-school area (which seems to be popular but, interestingly, is usually pretty quiet), and quiet study room. We have no restrictions on the kids coming upstairs. (One thing we did do, after the revival of the children’s department, was reserve a couple of computers upstairs for adults and high-school age, and a few downstairs for kids and families.)
I just took a quick walk through the library to refresh my memory, and didn’t see any signs enjoining quiet — though I was sure we used to have a few reminding people to be considerate with their cell phones.
Things can get pretty noisy downstairs — mainly because there are a lot of kids down there, and many of them seem to be having a lot of fun. I see nothing wrong with that, in fact I always feel a little happier after walking through the kids’ area. (I probably don’t need to add this, but we’ve got a really good crew of children’s librarians, and they’ll handle the situation if anyone starts actually misbehaving.) The kids are our patrons too, and we are giving them a good experience, whether they are here to work on an assignment, to learn something on their own, to find an entertaining book, DVD, game, or CD, or just to have a good time. I’m proud of our library for how well we serve our kids. And as I’ve said before, they are our future.
Upstairs it’s a lot quieter. Not quiet like a tomb, but quiet enough that if you’ve got some serious reading or writing to do, you can do it. When kids come upstairs, it’s either because they are looking for something in the adult area or because they are coming along with their parents — it’s usually not because they’re bored downstairs. And I’d say it’s understood that they are expected to be quieter upstairs than downstairs. Maybe because our district is a little more blue-collar than some, with a lot of immigrant families, parents seem to enforce that without the staff having to be heavy-handed about it.
RA…I really like the atmosphere that you are describing. A library full of life and patrons who respect each other’s needs. Life is good.
Library noise haiku:
Sleepy baby wails.
Technology chirps and beeps.
Symphony of life!
Then again, I’m the girl the patrons are shushing half the time. No indoor voice a’tall. Sad, really.
What? I can’t hear you? Speak louder please. I’m old.
HA! You’re not old – you’re well-seasoned!
Am I the only Unwinder looking forward to growing older gracefully?
Nope. Assuming I don’t existential-angst myself into an early “modestly priced receptacle,” I want to rock being old. Raging Grannies, here I come: http://www.raginggrannies.com/
Jess, w00t! We can be raging granny librarians together! Who’s with us???
*cartwheels*
Leigh Anne…congrats! You made it into AL Direct…Again! You are definitely on your way!
Thanks, Will! I just try to write honestly from my perspective, be it silly or serious, and apparently it resonates sometimes…heaven help us all.
You have a great future as a library commentator. Your blog is number one in my book. No doubt about it. Keep pushing yourself. Everyone should check out your latest daily diary at http://libraryalchemy.wordpress.com/ .
Count me in…as long as I don’t have to do cartwheels!
Gosh, I might actually be able to understand you LAV! I’m thrilled you have no inside voice a’tall!
Our library serves a small community and we have always welcomed families to use the library. However, if children become too rambunctious and an adult is not present, we will speak to the children about proper behavior in the library. We remind them that the library is a place to read or pick out books and the park outside is for running and jumping. Our library has always been a community center and is not “quiet” but the staff will speak up when necessary.
Carla…great comment. How does your discipline of the children go over with their parents?
Late, but somewhat relevant to this and previous discussions: http://spectator.org/archives/2010/07/28/a-paean-to-the-printed-page/print
I would like to think there is somewhere we can go where there arent children running amok and screeching . Like a fine resturant for instance. I am appalled that the average parents thinks its ok to inflict their un restrained child on the public, particularly in these sort of places. I might add, As a child I was bought up to not behave like this out in public so alot of it is parental slackness. Good rearing has gone out the window. Let your children ‘express themselves’ in your home and backyard, not where it is offensive to others.
As a child I was taught to whisper in the library, to walk rather than run, and to treat both the books and other library-goers with respect. These rules weren’t terribly complicated, and as a 3-year-old I had no trouble grasping them.
Astonishingly enough, our delicate sensibilities were not mortally wounded, our budding creativity was not squelched, and our energetic enthusiasm was not diminished by having a few rules to follow and being taught that our behavior should adapt to our environment and should take into account some consideration of those around us.
Today, however, one can only conclude that either the parents are so self-absorbed and entitlement-happy that they consider these practices unnecessary to teach, or that an entire generation of children is so mentally deficient as to be unable to understand them. In either case, it’s a tragedy.
From their unspeakably atrocious behavior in virtually all venues, it’s painfully evident that children are now being taught only three things: 1) the world revolves around them, 2) the world is one giant playground in which they are entitled to do anything they like and not just express themselves in any manner, but do so at any volume they choose, and 3) that no one else ever need be considered in any way at all.
I can’t imagine what sort of favor these parents imagine they’re doing their children, to make them believe that nothing they can do is wrong and that everyone in the world will accommodate them– at some point, inevitably, these children will have one hell of a shock coming their way. In the meantime they will just be heartily loathed by far more people than they could ever imagine.
As for libraries, I’ve long since given up on them as they’ve been taken over by barbaric savages– of all ages– and have become stressful, unpleasant, and truly disturbing places in which to spend time.
My personal, home library currently consists of approximately 2,000 volumes and steadily continues to grow. I can read, think, analyze, and enjoy while comfortably curled up in my favorite chair, sipping a glass of 40-year-old tawny port, and being distracted only by the sounds of the ocean waves hitting the beach below my house, and the crackling of logs burning in the fireplace.
I truly feel for both those who remember what a library once was, and those who will never know.
Shoshanna,
I enjoy your world-weary eloquence.
I also enjoy your eloquent world-weariness.
I worked in a public library once where certain staff members objected to the presence of younger library users and they used noise as an excuse. I thought then and now that the policy has to be a noise policy. So, the soccer moms waiting for story hour to end, the hard of hearing old folks and the people with cell phones should be shushed as much as the teens and children. Or, maybe, they should be shushed more because they should know better.
Many people, I suspect, vote for library funding because of children’s services. I know in my public library’s periodical room I often think of Homer Simpson’s father and how he “can’t fight like he used to but he sure can tell long, boring stories that never end. Like the time he wore an onion on his belt, because that was the style back then.” I’d never vote to fund that. Simpson reference; my kids would be so proud.
Libraries are public places, and children are members of the public. Therefore, I see no reason to exclude children from libraries. However, members of the public are expected to observe certain norms in public places, and that includes children in libraries. Anyone is allowed in a public park; however, people are not permitted to toss trash in public parks. Likewise, why should a library be cluttered with excessive noise?
One of the most important responsibilities of a parent is to teach their children proper behavior and respect for others. That includes making sure their children know that libraries are quiet places where things like shouting and running are not permissible. It also includes modeling that behavior by, for example, not chatting on their cell phones in the library.
Every library I have ever visited had meeting and activity rooms where louder conversations and the like were allowed and encouraged. Many libraries use these rooms for children’s activities during the day (particularly in summer) and community meetings in the evening. These facilities establish the library as a community meeting place. The stacks and reading rooms are for quiet contemplation and study. These are noble pursuits, and devoting to them a space teaches children a healthy respect for learning, which I hope we can all agree is something everyone–including children–ought to have.
Love your Fr. Leo, Will! I also have a beloved Fr. Leo here on the east coast. Another priest here in a growing parish received several complaints from parishioners about the noise caused by the kids coming to church in increasing numbers. (Gee, who would want that!) One day from the pulpit he said, “Remember, those that are noisy in the pews today will be the ones left to bring you communion in the nursing home.”
At a local diner I was bringing my whiny (but not crying or screaming) toddler outside. The waitress came up to me and told me I didn’t need to do that. Many of her adult customers behave much worse. So I guess that waitresses comment echoes all the comments here that it’s the behavior, not the age, that matters.
Thanks to Susan2 for reminding me that I meant to tip my hat to Father Leo!