WILL UNWOUND #180: “How Many Stars do you give the Amateurs at Amazon?” by Will Manley
July 22, 2010Today’s post is one of those confessionals where I finally work up the courage to admit to doing something that is professionally incorrect.
My subject today is book reviews. Unwinder Jeanne made the startling statement a month or two ago that we are living in the golden age of books. It was one of those comments that I dismissed right away because everyone knows that this is not the golden age of books. Everyone knows that this is the golden age of movie animation, high definition videogames, and social networking. Books are passé; books are over; books are obsolete. Book reading is declining. It takes too long, requires too much effort, and doesn’t provide instant gratification.
But then over time it became clearer and clearer to me that Jeanne is right. I read Booklist magazine religiously because editor Bill Ott has put together an incredibly skilled team of full time reviewers and supplemented it with a corps of experienced and talented part timers. Booklist is far superior to any other reviewing source and that includes The New York Times Book Review. The magazine is filled every two weeks with books on all subjects that these experienced and expert reviewers present with great enthusiasm and erudition.
Jeanne is right. We are in a golden age. How many times in the comment section of this blog have unwinders lamented the fact that their “Mount Bookmore” keeps climbing higher and higher. Too many books; too little time. If I read all the books I check off in Booklist, I would have to move to a parallel universe where days are 124 hours long.
But here’s my embarrassing little secret: I’m becoming quietly addicted to Amazon book reviews. This is heresy because book reviews are supposed to be written by experienced experts. In library school we were taught that a book should not be ordered unless its purchase could be supported by two positive “professional “ reviews. We were taught that the universe of acceptable professional reviewing sources were Booklist, Library Journal, School Library Journal, Wilson Library Bulletin, Virginia Kirkus, Horn Book, Choice,and The Center for Children’s Books. In those days, Publisher’s Weekly was not considered as a reputable source because it was controlled by the publishing industry.
So…you can understand why I’m somewhat shy about admitting my affinity for Amazon book reviews. Plus I had a built in prejudice with Amazon to begin with. When I clicked on Amazon to check on the reviews of my own books, I was at first elated to find that someone named Stephen was calling me the Robert Fulghum of library science. Then I discovered that this Stephen was my son, Stephen. How reliable can a book reviewing source be if your own family members can use it to tout your books?
But over time curiosity got the better of me and I started checking out Amazon reviews for books I was interested in and I had a threefold revelation: 1) 90% of them are well written, 2) 90% of them reflect a passion for books by the reviewer, and 3) collectively they constitute a wonderful on-going debate and dialog about the merits of any one title. I usually start with the one star reviews and work my way up. I have to admit it. I love the give and take.
My conclusion to all of this is that Jeanne is absolutely right. We are in a golden age of books. Wonderful books are being written and ordinary readers are having fun reviewing them. Could it be that the computer, far from hurting books, is actually advancing them?
Unwinders: here are some questions to think about when you comment today:
- Do you agree with Unwinder Jeanne…are we in the golden age of books?
- Do your libraries acquire books by the old fashioned library school method of consulting “reputable” professional reviewing sources?
- What are your favorite book reviewing sources?
- What’s your assessment of the Amazon book reviews on a whole? Does your library use them?
- There are hundreds of book review blogs. What are your favorites?
- Any other comments on books, readers, or book reviews?
REMEMBER…THIS BLOG IS A GROUP EFFORT. THANKS FOR YOUR HELP. If I WERE REVIEWING YOUR COMMENTS THIS WEEK FOR AMAZON, I WOULD GIVE THEM 5 STARS.
I’m leery of Amazon reviews, in large part because I’ve seen some author meltdowns as they get negative reviews, because I know family and friends can comment anonymously, and because authors can tout their own stuff. I also have a problem with some of the reviewers, who appear to read more books in one day that I can read in one year (and I can read over 150 books/year!). How valid are those comments?
That doesn’t mean I’d totally discount the comments, but they aren’t my primary source for whether the book gets purchased. Booklist, SLJ, TLC and blogs are where I look first. Which blogs? Jen Hubert Swan’s blog, Reading Rants (http://www.readingrants.org/) has a wonderful starting list. But then, I work in a K-12 school, so YMMV.
Laura, thanks for the link to Reading Rants. Also I’m intrigued with your comment about author meltdowns. Where have you seen these. I guess that’s what I like about Amazon…the give and take, and author meltdowns sound like fun.
I love YA fantasy and sci-fi. Thank you for posting about Reading Rant. I went to it and found 3 things I wanted to read.
BTW, Will, I am reading Farewell, My Lovely. Interesting.
The author’s comments have been deleted, but you can read the surrounding comments to get the gist that this was a truly epic meltdown: http://www.amazon.com/review/R1BA0D6J2GS59/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm
As for Reading Rants, Jen’s a great reviewer and her links point to other wonderful book bloggers. Persnickety Snark is another good source: http://www.persnicketysnark.com/
Laura, thanks. Keep the good stuff coming.
Yes, I do think we arer in a golden age of books. It’s so easy to get them. Having ’1 click’ ordering is addictive–and expensive. My library reviews books the old fashioned way. I once reviewed for LJ and would take them over PW any day. I don’t have any favorites today, nor any favorite review blogs.
On Amazon, let me tell you a story. During the last election season I just happened to score a couple of pre-pubs. I had this little back-channel by virtue of my blog at the time and they were offered to me. I didn’t seek them out. One was about a right-ish candidate, the other was about a leftish candidate. I went to Amazon and discovered several HUNDRED reviews on both books, either condemning or praising them.
The thing is, at the time I looked, I was one of a few dozen people who had even seen the books. They weren’t out yet. They hadn’t been shipped to bookstores. They were not available to the general public.
The other thing that happens on Amazon is friends writing reviews for friends. UFOs is one of my interests and I like to think I’m fairly aware of the literature. Recently one of the stalwarts publishd a book, and I recognized the names of the first few reviewers as certainly acquaintances of the author, if not friends.
Some Amazon reviews are really good. I like to think mine are. I often will take a look for a book I’m interested in, and sometimes the reviews have peruaded me to let it go. But you have to take Amazon with a grain of salt, especially if there is any politics involved at all. If there is, you can expect no objectivity at all.
Mick, thanks for the balanced view of Amazon, and for the special warning about political books. I haven’t seen any of your reviews. Do you sign them under “Mick?” Thanks.
Yes to the Golden Age – I am getting a lot more critical when reading a book – no more compulsion to finish what I start, if I am not enchanted by page 30, back it goes. There are too many alluring candidates waiting for my attention.
We only use the “professional” reviews as a guideline as to what is out there for purchase. If the folks in Los Gatos want to read books by their favorite author, who is winding down his career and co-authoring books on the assembly line, and these books get bad reviews, we buy ‘em.
I like to read the Amazon reader reviews as contrasted with the “professional” reviews. Just for fun. I do not give too much credit to either.
Linda…you articulated exactly how I use the Amazon reviews…to compare them to what I read in Booklist. How do you feel about spending limited book budget dollars on mediocore choices requested by patrons when there are so many better selections out there?
I’ll go broader and say that we’re in the golden age of the printed/written/pixellated word. Whether in printed books, e-books, magazines, on computer screens, in handmade ‘zines, or in the crumpled artifacts of http://www.foundmagazine.com, words are more easily come by than ever before. There are perks to this (I get to read WU without a paid subscription! booyah!) and downsides (any yobbo can start a blog, leading to lots of terrible writing and “truthiness.”)
I appreciate Amazon reviews. Amateur reviewer input, when combined with adequate research about the book itself, has not steered me wrong yet. There are some books that I would not want to ILL (the ILL librarian looks at me like I’m from Planet Whatthecrap already); it’s handy to be able to order them sight unseen from Amazon with the help of reviewer input.
Tangentially, am I the only librarian who hesitates to ILL something because of potential responses from co-workers…? The way our ILL system works, I must go through the ILL staffperson, and we have, um, different concepts of “normal.”
That is a great point about amateur reviewer input being combined with reviews and being most helpful in selecting titles. I do that too and wish I’d thought to mention it – and I’m glad you did!
Shame on your ILL staffperson for judging your reading habits! Would they treat a member of the public the same way? What’s happened to the concept of “freedom to read”?
Personally, I’m shameless. My library has discarded a lot of its fiction just because they’re trying to have lots of space on the shelf (“so much more attractive”), so if you’re a series reader like me, it’s very frustrating to have some of the books no longer available. I have no compunction about requesting science fiction and romances, even of the less literary quality. Who are the ILL people to judge what and why I’m reading what I do?
She doesn’t outright say anything, and I don’t think she would say anything to the public either, but she’s clearly ill-at-ease with certain topics. Oh, well. I’m the one who moved to small-town Wyoming; if I’d thought that ordering some things wouldn’t raise any eyebrows, well, that would have been my bad. Good for you for being shameless!
When I first moved to my current town, I walked into the library the first day after we moved in, proudly got my new library card, went to browse the shelves, and realized that the local library had all science fiction in the YA section. I turned around and left. I didn’t go back for 9 months because I felt personally insulted that the librarian disdained adults who read sci-fi. No one had to say anything to me – the message came through loud and clear in the shelving.
I should note, that nine months later when I did go back it was to apply for a job. I got the job, started as a circ clerk, and now have my MLS and have been here 16 years. And the librarian who had shelved all the sci-fi in YA actually was a Star Trek fan who had never realized what message she was sending with that shelving decision.
I have been an ILL librarian for 25 years, and I am leaping in to defend my colleagues. Can’t speak for this particular one, but most of the ones I know do not pass value judgements over what their patrons request, since we are in academic libaries where unusual topics are the norm.
Also, many of us are voracious readers ourselves, so we are delighted to encourage reading in our patrons, and sometimes we even wind up borrowing some of the same books we see them using, as a result of having discovered the title through the daily borrowing or lending workflow. The sheer variety is one of the things that keeps the job interesting.
You’re not the only one who hesitates to ILL certain books. Even if I put in my own request and do all the ordering, someone else on staff will see it and make snide comments. I’m just curious about things outside the “norm” in Kansas! What’s the harm?
This is why I end up buying those books used off Amazon, hopefully for about $5 each.
I agree, Denise, that most ILL librarians would not pass value judgments on requests – but obviously Jess and some others hesitate to ask for books they want either because they know or feel that their ILL staff will disapprove or feel uncomfortable about their choices.
I’m also lucky in being in a big city where generally staff wouldn’t really care what I ask for (assuming that I don’t cause them too much aggravation!).
As an extra plug for the used book purchases – have you checked out Better World Books – http://betterworldbooks.com ? They support global literacy, ship free within the US, although there is a nickel carbon free shipping fee, and used books are often under $5. I just ordered a book of poetry from there this morning that will be a gift to my daughter. And no, I have no economic ties with them.
jess, I’m appalled by an ILL librarian who editorializes about requests and then makes value judgments about the requestor. Fortunately here in NoCal we have a do it yourself ILL system called Link Plus. You do it all from home. It is a fantastic service, one of the best library innovations I have ever seen. Here is the link: http://csul.iii.com/screens/linkplusinfo.html .
Will, the ILL librarian I have to go through doesn’t editorialize (to her credit), though it sounds like Elise’s co-workers do. The ILL librarian does, however, act visibly uncomfortable with some topics. She may not be aware that she is doing this. I don’t mean to besmirch her professionalism, as she has done a stellar job tracking down all my various weird requests; I just wanted to point out that her discomfort, intentionally conveyed or otherwise, makes me think twice about ordering some things.
What do you think of Link plus? Do you think you could get something like that started at Yellowstone?
Will, Link Plus looks snazzy, and we have a similar online ILL system here. In fact, I place nearly all of my requests online. However, our ILL librarian is still the one who fulfills those requests, so I can’t get around her knowing what I order. As with Link Plus, the ordered book is still sent to the patron’s library, where the ILL staff must process it and the patron must pick it up. “Anonymity goes poof!,” to paraphrase The Kids In The Hall.
The advantages of retirement is that no one gives a shit what you order!
I don’t keep with your blog on a daily basis, so I could be wrong, but I believe what Jeanne said was “We are in a golden age for YOUNG ADULT literature”…..not a golden age for books in general. I think the context was someone recommending a YA book for you to read and you were wondering about whether or not to read YA lit and Jeanne supported the recommended YA title wholeheartedly and listed other recently published YA titles that won major awards like National Book Award and said “…golden age for YA lit”. Whether or not we are in a golden age of books in general is still a great topic for discussion.
Amy, thanks for the comment. You may be confusing Jeanne with Joan. If you scroll down you will see Jeanne’s comment here. Thanks. And I do agree…this is a golden age for YA books…definitely.
Oops, you are right. Thanks! that is exactly what i did, confuse Jeanne and Joan. Kudos to you on your fact checking.
And I agree with most here that Amazon is a useful tool w/in certain limits.. (the ancedote Mick shared is quite eye-opening)
Amazon particularly useful when trying to get an understanding of the more obscure patron requests. Yes definitely still rely on professional review journals – but we don’t get all of them in hard copy anymore. With many jobbers offering multiple full text reviews… (i know they need subscriptions to stay in business… we still get some.)
I was worried when LJ/SLJ were up for sale earlier this year – they have to stay around…paradigm cant chg that much!Glad they found a good home! Every year I think this year I will have time to get back to methodically reading reviews cover to cover in a few issues of SLJ. unfortunately it has been 5 yrs since I have read an issue cover to cover. content is great, just lack of time.
There are tons of great book websites and blogs out there, most of which I rarely have occasion to visit. sorry, I know i sound like a broken record – lack of time. perhaps that is the downside of golden age of books/info/content… knowing you are only accessing a small percentage. 1 blog I have frequented that you might like is http://bookiewoogie.blogspot.com
you will find great suggestions for books to read with the grandkids!
Amy, thanks. Bookiewoogie is great!
I do agree with Jeanne I think we are living in a golden age of books. I would add that by “books” I don’t mean just physical books I also mean ebooks.
I know some people in library land cringe about the new ebook format but I do think it is and will increasingly help sell books as time goes by simply because more people will be willing to buy a $10 bestseller than to shell out $25 or more for a hard cover copy of the same title. (I love my iPad — I love being able to start reading a really great new book in seconds!)
I also think that this golden age will allow really good writers who might otherwise languish in obscurity to be heard. Granted everyone and their brother, sister or cousin will be able to easily publish an e-book; however, that double sided sword which allows less than stellar writers to publish works cuts both ways, while also cutting out the middle man, and allowing writers to publish independently via online book stores – I think that is going to lead to many really great writers being read and heard world wide that would otherwise not have a shot because they’d have to pass the test with a publishing company and convince them to publish their work.
And as far as Amazon goes – I use it everyday at the library where I work.
I find that it is much, much better at searching for partial titles or vague patron requests for books whose author or title remains a mystery like the “I heard the book reviewed on Oprah or NPR and think the book is called Marta Hari or Mary Harry or something like that” than our circulation software.
And as far as book reviews go…I look at Amazon to see what they have in their best of the month section as I’ve found those titles generally feature solid writing while usually also having a starred Booklist or Publisher’s Weekly review and/or a great review in some of the other publications I use to compile the monthly book and media orders at the library where I work.
I will say that with the exception of Booklist’s reviews all the reviews I read are online and generally come from: The New York Times (book review), The New York Times Bestseller List (for those popular titles patrons love that don’t necessarily feature great writing but…), NPR Books, The Wall Street Journal Book section and any other magazine or online article that I come across that promotes either a critically acclaimed book or one that is bound to become popular because, for example, it was featured on Oprah.
And regarding book review blogs that I read – this one to start! And you know I can’t remember them all as I have them bookmarked at work so I’ll insert a follow up comment including the rest of the blogs I find helpful tomorrow.
Having said that though this blog is by far my favorite and if anyone recommends a great title that my library doesn’t own we will probably be buying it!
Ah, and one last thought – I do tend to utilize Amazon quite a bit to research popular DVDS and audio books on CD and/or find information on downloadable audio book plots/reviews as Overdrive doesn’t list enough details regarding their downloadable audio books for my taste. And I also use the previously mentioned New York Times and NPR sites for information on new and upcoming DVDs to purchase – as well as Booklist.
And now I really have to sign off and get my workout in before it gets any later. Funny thing that but after a certain age, and I’m there, that darn weight doesn’t come off all by itself even if one shoots for eating a well balanced diet!
I left out Library Journal as a review source – I use that too…
Linda…as always thanks for a great and comprehensive comment. If you have time, maybe you could follow up with a list of book reviewing blogs that you follow. I am fascinated with what is going on in the blogosphere and am quite impressed with the effort many librarians put into their book review blogs. Finally, I’ve reflected on your first point, that e-books will actually promote traditional books. The more formats that are made available to people to fit into their unique lifestyles, the more that people will read books. Very perceptive. Thanks.
All my life it’s been a Golden Age for books. At least for me – I can’t speak for those poor souls who don’t read.
Since I’m at an academic library we rely on Choice for book reviews but we aren’t limited to them. I receive publisher catalogs and do a lot of ordering from them since I work with areas that are very involved with building visual vocabulary – so I order lots of books on design (graphic, interior, industrial), fashion, art, designers of all sorts. I also scan several publications that cover those topics and read the reviews carefully.
For my personal library I use the Bas Bleu catalog for ideas and order from Amazon. It’s cheaper. I many have mentioned this earlier but I mourn the passing of A Common Reader. I never ordered a bum book from those folks. I have yet to meet their equal.
I also rely on recommendations from a long-time friend. I met her 28 years ago in library school and we’re still friends. Good Reads is also a source of titles to read/borrow – I rarely buy what those friends are reading.
I hope to keep my vision and mind until the day I die. I’ll be reading, I hope and pray, right up to the end. My dad began re-reading the Patrick O’Brian novels when he was given a terminal diagnosis and stopped reading about a week before he passed. I like to think of him and his best friend in heaven, arguing the merits of gin vs. vodka martinis, trading stories, and reading.
Oh, Ellen, I’m sorry about your loss. Those were my dad’s favorite novels too; he used to tell me, “It don’t signify” whenever I was being hard on myself about something. He did the re-read thing after his diagnosis, too. I forgot all about that. *cries like a shanked baby* I hope that if there’s an afterlife, the two of them are having spirited conversations about their favorite books. (Dad was firmly on Team Gin when it came to martinis–hope that’s alright!
)
I learned well from my father, Jess. I’m on team gin too. Years and ago he ordered a martini when we were at a restaurant – the waitress assumed he meant vodka. He was very kind but forceful when he told her that real martinis were made with gin and had he wanted a martini with vodka, he would have asked for one.
LOL, Ellen, your dad sounds like a character. The story about him telling the waitress what a martini is reminds me of a kerfuffle my dad and uncle got into once. They were hiking in the mountains for several days, and day one was a planned 12-hour slog up difficult terrain. My uncle kept assuring my dad that he had brought supplies for martinis, so all they had to do was reach the end of the day and they could put their feet up with a drink. What my uncle neglected to mention was that he had not brought any vermouth; when he handed Dad his “martini,” Dad took a sip and sputtered, “Bern, that’s not a g*d-damned martini! That’s gin in a glass!”
He was a character, Jess, and larger than life. He taught all his life and I began working in an academic library after his death. There are so many stories I’d like to share with him and I’d love to hear his take on some of the excuses we get about why books are late, research wasn’t done, etc. Some of his students kept in touch with him up until the end – one or two he’d had in classes nearly 50 years earlier.
We were thinking that we were hip and cool and would be young forever … at least that’s what I was trying to think.
Ellen and Jess, thanks for the memories of your dads. They both sound like gentlemen I would have been happy to know. And of course they were right about martinis.
Oops, that first sentence was a reply to Will’s “What were we thinking?”
Ellen…thanks for a fascinating and very touching comment. Thanks also for mentioning the widely diverse sources where you find good books. BTW…if you ever come across a fashion book focusing on the 1970s leisure suit phenomenon please share it with us. Thanks.
You know what, Will? I did find and purchase a book about “fashion” in the ’60s and ’70s. It’s a real hoot – surely I didn’t wear shirts with collars shaped like a dog’s ear, crocheted vests, and other horrors? Oh … I’m afraid I did. :0
What were we thinking???
I think books are being talked about everywhere and this is largely due to all the formats in which books and book reviews are now available. Beyond Amazon think about all the other places we now hear about books, like NPR, The Daily Show (my son’s favorite),The Today Show and GMA, Oprah, book clubs, the Costco magazine, etc.
Today, while getting my nails done, my manicurist and I had a great conversation about two books (“Delete” and “The Shallows”) which deal with the impact digital technology has on our lives. She had read neither, but our conversation was stimulating and after an hour she was writing the titles down and asked if they were available in audio? This is an intelligent woman with only a high school education and we always spend my appointments talking about books she’s read or other customers have mentioned. So yes, books are everywhere (and BTW the person next to me in the salon was reading a book on a Kindle.)
I love Goodreads.com reviews largely because I follow certain people whose discernment I trust. I also like that Goodreads automatically posts my selections on Facebook and Twitter. At work I read Booklist, Choice and LJ and often write a post about the upcoming titles on my blog which is automatically fed into FB and Twitter.
Today people have so many easy ways to learn about new books. I remember in high school eagerly waiting for the first day of the month when the library’s mimeographed sheet of new titles was posted on their bulletin board. Now we can go to Amazon, Slate, AlDaily, NYT and within seconds have access to any number of book reviews. Libraries are no longer the gatekeepers of this information, which I think is all to the good. The more people know about books the more they’ll use libraries.
My kids hate going to our local grocery with me because everyone calls me the book lady and come up and ask me about a title I posted on FB (it takes me forever to get out of there!) Everyone I know is reading a good book that they want to talk about and it gives us all a common language to start up a conversation.
Tensy…great comment. I especially like the part about your book discussions with your nail tech. By the way, what is your take on “The Shallows?” It seems like a book that is very apropos to what we are talking about.
And yes, I do read Amazon reviews, often of books I’ve already read, just to see what other people think of them. I also use them to check the description to see if I’ve already read the book, since my memory for titles is pretty poor.
birdy, thanks. That’s exactly how I use Amazon.
I have been using Amazon since before I became a librarian to inform me about books. I think it mostly does a good job. It is pretty easy to tell if someone’s personal friends or enemies have written a review.
They also reprint the professional reviews if they are available, so why go to some other source to read them? I only use the “professional” literature if there is no information on Amazon.
That said, I take them with a grain of salt. I read the negative and the positive reviews. Sometimes they are irrelevant and it is clear from the review. (Example – I hate this publisher/seller so I am rating the book down but liked it anyway)
I think that public reviews tell me what the “people” like. Professional reviews are good, but lots of really great literature is unpopular reading.
One thing is that these are Reviewers and not Critics. Professional librarians are Critics, but the masses are Reviewers. In one of his books, Spider Robinson quoted this (from someone else) difference: “Critics tell me whether a book is “Art”, but Reviewers tell me whether it’s damn good to read.” This is the power and beauty of Amazon.
It’s clear from social media that people trust friends and family more than anonymous professional critics, and Amazon is a sterling early example of this.
Also, why are publishers and bloggers doing all the prominent work on reviewing books and getting adults & young adults to read more? I follow several small scifi/fantasy publishers’ blogs and the io9.com scifi blog. Io9 does book reviews all the time and they are running monthly book clubs. They are part of Gawker media and get millions of page hits. Let me repeat: they are running monthly book clubs and review books all the time. And people are reading them every week.
On Booklist: who besides a librarian has even heard of it? The average non-librarian probably doesn’t even realize the local library can provide them with recommendations.
The OPAC – lots of people have been writing about how “bad” they are. Lots of people are scared of RDA and FRBR. But if I were your average citizen and compared my library’s OPAC book info to Amazon ->no comparison. I would walk out of the library and not come back.
Lisa, thanks for a very thoughtful comment. I totally agree with you that libraries should make Booklist available for the public. They should just order one more copy and put it on the periodicals shelf. It is a treasure.
I firmly believe this is a Golden Age of books: better illustrations, more formats, more options for getting books into print, and a culture of reading thanks to best seller lists, blogs, Oprah, Amazon, B&N, DVD/movie adaptations and the proliferation of book discussion groups.
My sister listens to books on tape/CD, I have my Sony e-reader, a friend with macular degeneration uses a Kindle cranked up to megaprint, the iPad is now available, and you can download Kindle software into your laptop or iPhone. Is that incredible–you can read a book on your phone!
Re: Amazon, I’m a fan of their reviews as one source, but definitely not the only source. I look for reviews that are critical– these can provide information that professional reviews do not, and these are not written by the author’s friends and family
.
Thanks, Jeanne for a great comment and for getting this discussion started in the first place! You get a shout-out.
I will often use Amazon when I’m scratching my head over two professional reviews, one assuring me that this is the best book since The Cat in the Hat, the other just as confidently assuring me that no one but NO one would order this piece of trash. And I do it the way WIll does: I start and maybe end with the bad reviews. You can usually pick out the biased reviews very easily since they are rants, not reviews. This is the trashiest book EVER and even my kid was appalled by it and so was the neighbor down the street/teacher/minister etc. A lot of time the reviews will mention things that never seemed to get mentioned in pro reviews and I don’t know why. I am not going to buy a book that is a spiral binding unless it is an essential title for some reason. It seems more frequently mentioned on Amazon than in the sources who you think would realize that is of importance to librarians. Often parents will complain that their kid ripped up the book after one week or some such. I pay attention. Maybe the kid is unusually rough but if two parents complain of the same thing it is likely true. As lousy as the budget is, I don’t want to waste my few dollars on a book that won’t last long. As someone pointed out, Amazon will often print pro reviews as well. The other thing I often use Amazon for is age recommendations. When I read a review that informs me this book is good for grades 4 through 7 I want to scream at someone! I’ve yet to meet a 4th grader and 7th grader who is interested in the same book! Well, with the exception of the Harry Potter series. At least on Amazon they tend to pick a category and state it. juvenile. Young Adult. Not both. And I often agree with Amazon once I have my hands on the actual book. So while I don’t use Amazon as a first source, I do use Amazon enough it is bookmarked on my PC at work (at home too, but that is for ME) Sources used in order of popularity: SLJ. Tattle Tales/BWI. Amazon. Horn Bk. VOYA. PW. New York Times Bestseller list was a regular read when I was ordering the kids’ fiction. I won’t be using it so much anymore. The one I will try hard not to use is Kirkus. We’ll see what happens with the reincarnated Kirkus but I almost always completely disagreed with their reviews for kids. No idea what I think of their adult reviews. Blogs: Betsy Berg at SLJ. Marc Aronson for nonfiction in general. I’d be interested in knowing which blogs YSLs tend to read for reviews. I don’t use Booklist because by the time I get it on the routing slip, I have already ordered the books. Also, Booklist covers so much, that it is rather overwhelming. Again, I’ll use them to help with a couple of contradictory reviews.
Joan…great comment. I have two reactions: 1) Madonna’s book came out in a spiral binding, and 2) an unwinder mentioned Reading Rants as a great YA blog.
I never even thought about Amazon as a source of binding information–I detest spiral-bound anything for my library, professional or personal.
Thank you for that insight, Joan.
To address one of Will’s questions: We use Publisher’s Weekly and Booklist for most of our ordering, as well as some lists from Baker & Taylor and Brodart. (Our copy of BL is a photocopy of the Youth reviews so the whole department can pass it around without having to share with the rest of the library.) The Brodart list is useful for workaday nonfiction titles that are regularly in demand for homework in the children’s area. I also personally use the “Good Comics for Kids” blog as a source of graphic novel reviews, since the print journals so seldom cover children’s graphic novels as a separate category (though that’s been changing).
I’m going to have to look up Reading Rants and see if the Brodart lists are online! I’m not saying Amazon is completely reliable re the binding, but it is often better than professional sources! And sometimes the parents will grumble about spiral binding even if not officially mentioned by Amazon. At least it saves some of my budget dollars!
Kim, thanks. It’s good to hear the validation for Booklist.
My library uses the tried and true library reviews, but also pays attention to popular media and comments from our patrons. Basically, we know that if Oprah or Jon Stewart talk about a book, there’s a good chance that we will get several requests for it. We also have Novellist on our library system, although it tends to be sketchy. The other day it offered Princess Academy as a read-alike for Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince.
Personally, I tend to read the Amazon reviews for my own book selections. If I’m looking for a new author in, say, urban fantasy, I find that the professional book reviews are no help whatsoever, because they all tend to say the same thing in a fairly generic manner, and the sci-fi reviews tend to be very male oriented. But the Amazon customer reviews are more helpful because I can use them to figure out if a book runs along the lines that I like. As far as professional reviews go – there are so many book awards out there these days that it seems like they invent a new one for every book printed. Look at ALA Direct – every issue has a list of 5 to 10 new book awards. Everyone and their third cousin is giving a book award for something – “best novel using the word ‘whilst’ in the title” … It tends to devalue the whole book award thing. Not to mention that the awards have gotten to be as political as the academy awards. It’s not about the quality of the book, so much as about the “importance” of the statement it makes. So we end up giving prestigious childrens book awards to books that bore children, turn them off reading, and that their parents won’t read to them because they are too disturbing; but they are “important” topics so that’s all that counts.
OK. Sorry. Stepping down from the soap box now.
Deb…I am totally in agreement about awards. They are ALWAYS political…whether it be books, blogs, movies, movers and shakers…whatever. I will have to do a post about awards. Thanks for the idea.
I do think it is a golden age of books, though ironically, I live in a town with only two bookstores, one a used paperback exchange place and the other a small branch of the chain Books a Million. However, the one thing that disturbs me in a number of the above discussions are the people who mention using the recommendations of small independents like Bas Bleu and the now defunct A common reader and other sources produced by them, and instead buy from Amazon “because it’s cheaper.” Do you think these people will continue to exist on your good will? Whenever I leave town I shop at independent bookstores because the staff is knowledgeable about their books, they have wonderful books I probably wouldn’t have found in the chain bookstores, and each book brings back a happy memory of a particular store, instead of being a random, mindless click on my computer.
Denise, I agree with you completely about the indies. Everyone on this blog knows how strongly I feel about the importance of mom and pop service and that’s what you get with the indies. We lost an indie in the downtown where I was city manager and that downtown was never ever the same after they left. Here’s my post on the disappearing mom and pops: http://willmanley.com/2010/06/16/will-unwound-144-big-box-libraries-by-will-manley/ .
One other thing; if you have an Iphone or Ipad, it’s easier than ever to find good independent bookstores, because the American Booksellers association has created app called IndieBound, where you can not only get a list of all the independent booksellers who are members of ABA in your region, but lists of recommended recent books by genre, and get a free e book reader and order e-books through independent dealers.
Denise, I whined about the app store in my comment below, but you make me see more clearly: in the age of infinite choices, it’s having a network of folks who can give personal recommendations that makes it manageable. So maybe for someone whose duties include purchasing, there could be a pretty huge benefit in finding some trusted Amazon reviewers.
I still yearn for the days of solo bumbling, but maybe the plethora of reviews made possible by the ease of publication is the only way to keep us all from getting lost and starving to death in the stacks.
Tim, I still trust my 2 year old granddaughter Sophie to randomly pull a good book off the shelf.
If you want good recommendations and cheap prices, shop at the remainder outlet Daedalus http://www.daedalus.com
You save a bundle and I have never been disappointed in any of the books I have bought from them. They send out catalogs, but there is much more on their website. And if you’re on the road between NYC and DC, it’s worth stopping at their store in Columbia, MD
Denise
Denise, thanks for this site. It looks great.
There’s more on their website than in their catalogs??
I am doomed.
I’d like to think it’s a golden age for books. It seems like people are always talking to me about what book they’re reading, have I read this or that author but then, that’s my job. And being a reader, I tend to be drawn to other readers so perhaps my opinion is a bit biased.
Amazon reviews are great levelers to the professional reviews in Booklist & LJ. Sometimes those in the biz are a bit more discriminating than the average reader in my library and will pooh-pooh books that I know will fly off the shelves here. So I go to Amazon (and why can’t our Dynix catalog work like Amazon which is so forgiving about my spelling miscues & typos?). I like to think that I can tell legitimate reviewers on Amazon just as I can in print journals. And many of Amazon’s reviewers are just plain, ordinary folks who want a good book to read. With budgets shrinking, I need to consult as many sources as possible to cover my tracks if I ever need to defend a purchase.
Don’t have that much time to follow blogs–and isn’t this one all I need?–but I do subscribe to Fiction_L & Shelf Awareness and have discovered many titles from those sources. And authors appearing on the Daily Show & Colbert Report ususally end up on our shelves (well, they don’t but their books do) There seems to be quite a correlation between those viewers & our readers (besides me).
A loud ditto on the subject of the SirsiDynix catalog and its useful — suggestions if something isn’t spelled correctly or if we only have a partial patron requested title. I too wish Dynix did a better job — but at least there is Amazon!
That of course is Amazon that has the useful feature that brings up partial titles or says we don’t have that — how about this title instead…and that similar title frequently turns out to be the one the patron wants.
SirsiDynix is tremendously user unfriendly. I’d say close to user hostile! I don’t know anyone except possibly the upper admin who even likes the software. At most we tolerate it, with grudging admission that perhaps two or three items might be helpful. One of the people who was helping on deciding to go with Sirsi, who is now retired, admitted to me that it was a terrible mistake. No one else up in admin would ever be this honest. I guess that is why they were so thrilled to see him retire.
Joan…why does upper management like SirsiDynix?
Because they were cheap. Which is a synonym for this city. We used to have software called ATLAS which was made by DRA. DRA got bought out by SirsiDynix. So, we were able to avoid the RFPs/RFBs by stating this was an upgrade. This is a perfect example of why RFP/RFBs SHOULD be used! There was a hope apparently that the new software would have an easier time converting the old material since the new and old software would be able to talk to each other easier. NOT! To be fair, most of the current management either weren’t here when the fatal decision was made, or were probably still low down enough that they didn’t have much, if any, input. Most of admin are now new people. Not necessarily new to the system, just to the position. We’ve been having rapid enough turnover that few can remember where anyone is these days unless actual friends with the person! If your next Q is why the rapid turnover, think twice before asking. I’ll warn you it’ll be a rant.
CarolAnn..thanks for validating my recent proclivity to go to Amazon for a good book to read. I too love how forgiving the Amazon software is. Why can’t we have that in library systems?
Is this the golden age of books? There are probably as many really good books out there as ever, but because of the publishing explosion, they are harder to find. It’s like panning for gold: you may go through a ton of gravel to come up with a few worthwhile nuggets. The purpose of reviews is to serve as a shortcut to finding the precious nuggets.
The availability of Amazon’s reviews and other web reviews is a mixed blessing. The major professional review journals, between them, typically cover only a few thousand titles in a year, and many of those are less than wonderful. Amazon et al. have added a welcome and badly needed breadth to the world of reviewing, but with the same caveats as before.
The real question with any review is one’s assessment of the reliability of the reviewer. All reviewers, whether with Booklist, Publishers Weekly, Library Journal, Kirkus, or whatever, have biases, to a greater or lesser extent, although they may be disguised as criteria, professional standards, or something else that implies impartiality. For a good example of both blatant and more subtle bias, look at the reviews on Amazon of religious books. It takes a discerning reader or library selector to sense both the bias and the expertise of the reviewer and factor that into the decision of whether to read or buy the book. When you find a reviewer whose credentials are sound and whose judgment you trust, like Nancy Pearl, what a difference it makes!
A bothersome thing about Amazon’s reviews, along with the majority of books published today, is the absence of professional proofreading and editing. Anyone who cares about good writing is simply going to find it harder to trust a review that is sloppy.
One problem for librarians with using Amazon’s reviews is the lack of coherent organization. Time is precious for library selectors, and the major review journals have screened materials and organized their reviews so that experienced selectors can cover a lot of titles in a minimum of time. But when a librarian needs to find out about a book that wasn’t in the regular reviewing publications, those online sources, despite their flaws, are of tremendous value.
Wayne, our local newspaper died, and is attempting to be reborn as a “hyperlocal” (eyeroll) news website/blog/twice-weekly physical paper. The proofreading is essentially nonexistant. Headlines are full sentences, if not multiple sentences. Sometimes I read the lead three or four times and have no idea what the sentence means. This is in Ann Arbor, where there isn’t quite a deficit of folks with journalism and english degrees running around. Do you think the internet is just plain killing good writing?
The problem is that the Internet invites writing on the fly. Good writers know that what they write on the fly is just a rough first draft. Quality writing requires revision, which catches spelling errors, grammatical slips, mixed metaphors, non sequitors, etc. and allows developing the writer’s ideas more fully and carefully.
This sounds like our local newspaper, which is still in daily, hard copy form. The reporters (or news writers, as I think they are now called) really have no concept of grammar, style, and spelling. Don’t really understand what reporting is, either.
I think this goes back to an earlier blog topic about whether people are more stupid (my theory is that they’re more lazy than previous generations) Standards have dropped & we’ve grown to accept sub-standard writing as the norm. We should be able to write & understand in 144 characters or less, right?
Folks, on the editing issue, I plead very guilty. I’m always blogging on the fly and leaving multiple typos in my wake. I’m too lazy to edit and proofread.
Wayne, I am a big Nancy Pearl fan. She has almost singlehandedly re-focused attention on books when much of the library world was going gaga over technolust. Here is her blog: http://nancypearlbooks.wordpress.com/2010/07/02/the-good-son/#comments .
Something I’ve been thinking about quite a bit lately is the possibly-increasing contradictions between my belief in the commons and the execution of the commons.
Take Apple’s app store. Their ad campaign tells you how many MILLIONS of apps there are available for you to download. What they don’t tell you is that their system for ranking, displaying, and browsing those apps is pretty terrible. It makes it very difficult to find what’s good. I suspect they’re kind of okay with that, because users end up downloading things, trying them out, deleting them, and downloading more things. Again, big numbers that at face value imply massive success but have a much more frustrating story for the users of that system.
I remember the good old days of the internet, when it was not that easy to publish things. It was easy to find interesting and unique things. It was easy to tell the difference between someone who knew what they were doing and someone who didn’t. Now I find I do less unfocused bumbling (and therefore see fewer new things), partly because the chances of getting rewarded for your aimlessness are decreasing.
Of course, having my own blog, loving this one, and wishing I could help every library patron publish their resume on the web, I can’t complain that ease of use is a bad thing. But it’s worth noting that that factor is one of the main suspects in the evolution of my personal web experience from ‘a day playing hooky at the museum’ to ‘another part of the automated routine.’
I think what this means for reviews is, I often look over them, and do indeed think they can be as or more helpful than ‘professional’ reviews. But this is true for items I’m already intending to look at. I don’t click on the person’s name to see their other reviews. I don’t click on the lists of ’50 books about frog and toad secretions you should read before you die.’ And the review would never be the sole deciding factor in a purchase.
Tim, is serendipity dead in a time of info overload?
Not Tim, but pending his reply I’ll jump in: Serendipity is the essence of web browsing, I think. Of course, maybe that’s just the way my mind (such as it is) works, but much of what I like on the Web is stuff I stumbled on accidentally — just as I do in libraries and bookstores (especially used bookstores, mmmmm loves me some used bookstores). And I think, though I haven’t followed the question up systematically, that patrons are still browsing in the library, visiting the “new” sections and their favorite parts of the stacks, and discovering unknown things that way.
* Do you agree with Unwinder Jeanne…are we in the golden age of books?
Unfortunately most “golden ages” are not recognized as such until they are almost over or are already ended, in my observation. So, I’d say we were Jeanne, but that boat has left the dock, we can still see it but its receding.
Shhh – I secretly wish for a massive solar emp flare sometimes; so digital books and reader devices will die!
* Do your libraries acquire books by the old fashioned library school method of consulting “reputable” professional reviewing sources?
No Will, for the most part the professional reviews are not worthwhile for my subject areas. Native American Studies and Comparative Ethnic Studies…
* What are your favorite book reviewing sources?
Much of what we get comes from a very limited list of publishers, if its common commercial sources; otherwise it comes from Tribes, Government sources or very small presses (which requires the moccasin telegraph network).
* What’s your assessment of the Amazon book reviews on a whole?
I like them and have even written a couple.
Does your library use them? I sometimes look at them. My library doesn’t do much of anything without the librarians doing something – lol.
* There are hundreds of book review blogs. What are your favorites?
Ummm – I’d trust Amazon more than a blogger with two exceptions – lol – and I trust my colleagues who also specialize in what I do more than either…
* Any other comments on books, readers, or book reviews?
I find this quite useful when shopping:
http://www.addall.com/
Best to all.
John…just tried that link. You are right. It is a very helpful site. Thanks.
Since I don’t work in the public library, I have no idea how they choose their books. I like the feature they have for patrons to suggest books they don’t have in the system and have used it once or twice.
For my personal reading, I can get ideas anywhere. Other than my own site, http://www.jandysbooks.com, I have no other blogs I check regularly. I follow a couple friends’ because we have similar tastes. I follow the tweets from LA Times book section. I follow your Mystery Project list. I’ll stumble across a review somewhere that catches my attention. I may see something on CSpans’s book reviews over the weekends. It may be a favorite author so I’ll read the book no matter what. I’ll walk into a bookstore and read the back cover. I work in our library’s used book store a few times a month and find books that way. (And I get ARC romances because of my site. I never know how good or trashy those might be.)
And yes, I use Amazon’s ratings – but with many grains of salt. As someone mentioned, they do bring in some professional reviews like Publisher’s List. The first thing I check is the number of personal reviews. If it’s one or two, they’re probably from friends of the author and I discount them. Otherwise, I like comparing the worst and best reviews to get an idea of what people may be saying.
Vicki…I love your reviews. Do you avoid all other reviews before writing your own? Also, I hope you’re feeling fine.
I purchase books for our Young Adult Collection, I do use professional review sources but I also need to consider what my readers want. With a limited budget I want to make sure that the books that I buy get into the hands of readers. YA’s have a tendency to select reading materials based upon what is current and popular among their peers. When I question the appeal of a book, I will check the Amazon Customer review for star rating; after all it is the readers who we want to like the books. I have found my circulation has increased by at least 10% over the past several years.
Other sources I find helpful are Goodreads.com there are several of us YA librarians in my state which are members so this is a good way for us to share information, I have also been very successful using the Ultimate Reading list on Teenreads.com for promoting books.
Susan, thanks for the comment on YA’s. That’s a tough group to select for. Have you tried the Reading Rants blog mentioned in the very first comment?
It’s nice to see that I’m not the only one who sometimes checks Amazon reviews to help inform my selection decisions! I select graphic novels for children, teens, and adults for my library system. Mostly I use professional reviews to choose the books I order, but many of the superhero titles are not reviewed in the professional literature. I often use Amazon reviews to help me judge both the content and popular appeal of books like this. I also go to Amazon when I don’t feel the reviews have given me a good feel for a book. Seeing how general readers view the book can be a real asset!
Chris L….thanks for the validation on Amazon. You are right. Those reviews can be helpful when you are in doubt about a book.
G’day from Down Under! I agree with Jeanne. I think this IS a golden age for books, and for writing in general. There are so many voices being heard – via Twitter, blogs, Facebook and other social media (as well as through more traditional means) that it is a veriable cornucopia of reading material.
As far as Amazon goes, the reviews are fine, but I would not use them as my sole selection tool. I, too, use professional journals and also websites such as LibraryThing to evaluate both what to read and what to purchase. LibraryThing is my favourite because I can see who else is reading what I am reading and I can jump off from the list of what THEY have been reading to find something I might have missed! I feel like I have rambled a bit here…hope it all makes sense!
Sue O…thanks for checking in from Down Under. We are all hoping that we can create some intereest in our blog down there. Keep the comments coming. BTW…are libraries struggling with the same funding issues down under as they are in the states? Thanks.
Thanks Will. Love reading what the other Unwinders have to say about the topics. As far as funding goes, I think public libraries are very well-funded here – but school and university libraries are not. Primary (elementary) schools, in particular, are prey to the whims of their school council and principal a lot of the time. There is currently a parliamentary inquiry into school libraries and librarians taking place. This is being followed intently by the profession here, especially since the current Prime Minister, Julia Gillard (who is campaigning to be re-elected on August 21)was the one who called for the inquiry. The inquiry was called because of statistics that revealed that less than 12% of primary schools had a teacher-librarian or library professional running the library. More disturbing still is the fact that 2 new primary school have been built WITHOUT a library at all! Sorry, this is a long post, but you did ask!
Thanks, Sue. Our school libraries are suffering greatly too. I think I will do a post next week on this issue. Your info will help!
Hi again Will. Before you do that, perhaps take a look at the inquiry submission by The Hub. It is very comprehensive and touches on all the relevant issues here, plus they have all the accurate figures (mine were slightly out). You can find it at: http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/edt/schoollibraries/subs/sub104.pdf.
Cheers,
Sue O
Thanks, Sue. I will check it out. School libraries are near and dear to my heart.
I tend to be curmudgeonly and dyspeptic in viewing social trends, and it’s difficult for me to say we’re in the golden age of anything. After all, this is a century in which adults publicly and without shame express the aspiration to be reality TV stars. But I have to admit that a lot of quite good books are being published today, along with the requisite quantity of dreck (there’s probably an invariate, or a close-to-invariate, ratio), and that the multiple formats seem to be sparking an interest in reading — and maybe helping people fit reading into lives that would otherwise be too crowded. A golden age then? Nodding toward John Berry’s comment, I’m going to say it’s difficult if not impossible to know a golden age when you’re in one, but it’s a better age than I was prepared to believe.
I found out at a departmental meeting Thursday afternoon that I’ve been Reprieved! reprieved! Curfew shall not ring tonight — that is, at my supervisor’s request I will not be a selector for religion, languages, and car repair, as she is relying on me to be the staff expert and leader of the catalogers’ learning experience as we prepare for the new cataloging code (“cataloging code” is actually a little old-fashioned as a term for RDA). I will still be doing a day per week of reference and taking on supervision of our other three catalogers, but that will be doable if difficult; I was seriously concerned that all that plus selection would not be.
But my understanding is that our selectors rely on the traditional review literature plus reviews that our jobbers send via their online ordering interface, and make some use of other sources as well.
I find Amazon reviews potentially useful in personal selection. I can pick out the ones full of spite and ignorance, of course, and like to think I have a certain nose for hype — again, as someone said, where there are a lot of reviews you get a better sense of the book’s substance. I look for references to actual incidents, themes, arguments, etc. in the book itself — in other words, evidence that the review is based on an engagement with the substance of the work rather than just the reviewer’s own agenda.
To me, professional and lay reviews can have a certain synergy, analogous to what some of us cataloging types are trying to develop between professional subject analysis and classification on the one hand, and patron-supplied tags on the other.
R.A., what great news! I’m so glad for you! Catalog away!
Thanks, Joan — I felt a lot better after the meeting than before!
R.A. I was pondering what to write about for my next post. Your comment about living in a country where people aspire to be reality t.v. stars has given me an idea. Many thanks, and good luck with the new cataloging code.